Computer Storage - Best Practices

[abulr]

32 minutes ago, mansr said:

They are apparently not interested in learning that most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

was having this discussion with an engineer colleague at work...
if a digital bit is just a 1 or 0... and it's all going to a machine that will C that D to an A
why does it matter what machine sends that 1 or 0 and how it's sent?
i apologize and i'm not trying to stir up an argument
i just want to know what is wrong with my logic above

in the interest of preventing any further arguments - may i suggest that if you agree with the above and to you a "bit is a bit" - please refrain from posting a response that calls the other side "unicorn believers" etc etc

and from the side that believes for example "SD Card is far superior than SSD" for SQ... does anyone have a thought as to why? I'll start... is it possible that one bus is more error-prone on reproducing these 0's and 1's?...

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, marce said:

I working on a design with multiple DACs and ADC's and femto bias op-amps far more sensitive than audio, worked on audio DACs both pro and commercial, don't forget we have professional audio clients.

You just chat the same rubbish because what we say does not agree with your blinkered view of the world. You take EVERY opportunity to pull people down with your pointless and worthless posts, it really does get boring.

 

 When will you accept that the OP and others posting in  threads like this aren't in the least interested in anything you have to say on these subjects based on your undoubted expertise in areas that have little relevance to the subject matter being discussed, which is :

Computer Storage - Best Practices

[marce]

This is getting beyond the joke now.

Listen you little man, stop pulling me down at every opportunity and stop telling what and where I can post, it is not your forum. Go away.

[mansr]

11 minutes ago, abulr said:

and from the side that believes for example "SD Card is far superior than SSD" for SQ... does anyone have a thought as to why? I'll start... is it possible that one bus is more error-prone on reproducing these 0's and 1's?...

The error rates of typical storage devices are vanishingly low. If they were not, nothing would work reliably.

[alfe]

41 minutes ago, mansr said:

They are apparently not interested in learning that most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

Are you sure?

 

[alfe]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

The error rates of typical storage devices are vanishingly low. If they were not, nothing would work reliably.

 

Then explain why for the last generation oHDD we moved from RS codes to LDPC codes.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, moriez said:

We're on the same frequency sandy. This is the thing guys, that a few are causing and for some reason admin lets happen.

Quote

Marce said " stop pulling me down at every opportunity and stop telling what and where I can post, it is not your forum. Go away.

This thread was doing fine, with respectful and friendly replies until Post 68 ..

 It's up to the Original Poster to decide the direction that he wishes the thread to take.

 If he/she believes that the original premise of the thread is being abused, they can request Admin to remove the offending posts or request that the wishes of the OP be respected.

 Chris is always responsive to these requests, even though he may not personally believe this is warranted. 

[mansr]

7 minutes ago, alfe said:

Then explain why for the last generation oHDD we moved from RS codes to LDPC codes.

To achieve said low error rate at the external interface, presumably. As long as the drive responds correctly to ATA commands, nobody needs to care how it manages to do this. The type of error correcting codes used internally isn't going to influence the sound when an audio file is played back. You know this.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, moriez said:

 

We're on the same frequency sandy. This is the thing guys, that a few are causing and for some reason admin lets happen.

 

@The Computer Audiophile care to share your view on the matter?

For the most part people are free to post what they want as long as it isn’t a personal attack. Thus, we have a great feature that enables people to ignore users. Use that feature and you don’t have to read dissenting opinions. 

 

In addition we offer the ability for the OP to request moderator capability for single threads. Then posts can be removed by the OP and dissenting voices can start their own thread. 

[alfe]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269889887_Performance_Comparison_Between_Low-Density_Parity-Check_And_Reed-Solomon_Codes_Using_Wireless_Image_Transmission_System

[mansr]

1 minute ago, alfe said:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269889887_Performance_Comparison_Between_Low-Density_Parity-Check_And_Reed-Solomon_Codes_Using_Wireless_Image_Transmission_System

How is that relevant?

[motberg]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:05 PM, marce said:

What is it then Motberg... since you seem to disagree...

I could do with a laugh

 

you used the qualifier "all".. as such I disagree as it seems there is also a lot of experience and craftsmanship used in the design of audio reproduction equipment

 

I hope that cheers up your day!

[Ralf11]

7 hours ago, sandyk said:

little relevance

 

this is a core problem - you don't seem to realize that is is completely relevant - that is fundamental to digital storage and transmission

 

if you don't like electronic signals, we can use DNA

 

or RNA

 

 

[sunny_time_99]

On which side do I find the original topic?

[davide256]

10 hours ago, abulr said:

 

was having this discussion with an engineer colleague at work...
if a digital bit is just a 1 or 0... and it's all going to a machine that will C that D to an A
why does it matter what machine sends that 1 or 0 and how it's sent?
i apologize and i'm not trying to stir up an argument
i just want to know what is wrong with my logic above

in the interest of preventing any further arguments - may i suggest that if you agree with the above and to you a "bit is a bit" - please refrain from posting a response that calls the other side "unicorn believers" etc etc

and from the side that believes for example "SD Card is far superior than SSD" for SQ... does anyone have a thought as to why? I'll start... is it possible that one bus is more error-prone on reproducing these 0's and 1's?...

I suspect there is a trade off where an SSD while not bad in and of itself, can be  a bad USB out  neighbor inside the computer chassis. I don't believe that read errors are the issue here so much as an electrically dirty environment from read activity causing bad sound with USB out. I'd prefer to see digital audio players read playlists to memory and "lock out" disk read/write during audio processing.

[fas42]

All digital circuitry and processing requires analogue electrical processes to be part of the package - an obvious one are the power supplies needed. And it just turns out that one has to be scrupulously careful in how this is implemented, by preventing the digital areas from generating excess noise, and/or shielding the analogue circuitry from such.

 

The more capable the rig is in revealing fine detail in the recording, the more likely the ear will be able to hear to pick subtle changes in the playback quality; because sufficient isolation has still not been achieved. Just saying it should be adequate, because that's the experience in other fields, doesn't guarantee that.

[moriez]

On 4/26/2019 at 1:25 PM, mansr said:

apparently not interested in learning 

 

Entirely your and the likeminded choice if you want to assume a teaching role. However, as in real life that should go along with sensing when, where and how these ''lessons'' are communicated. Shoving one's convictions down throats at every turn is not the way.

 

 

On 4/26/2019 at 1:25 PM, mansr said:

most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

From where I stand no more and no less than an opinion. And for each opinion there is an opposing opinion of equal strenght. So where does that leave us? Making statements as if they're universally accepted facts like the sun, moon and stars exist, even more so in this type of online space is a large part of what I take issue with.

 

Now for god's sake, let us steer back to the discussion.

@Nenon any progress or update?

[Nenon]

48 minutes ago, moriez said:

@Nenon any progress or update?

 

I was patiently waiting for you guys to finish arguing :). But it would be nice to go back on topic.

 

I have been waiting for various parts, so I can perform different tests. Most orders are arriving next week, some will take longer. But I will post any updates worth mentioning. 

 

[davide256]

Dusted off an old Sabrent "toaster" for 2.5/3.5" drives, believe it only does SATA II but does support USB3.

It accepts 12V DC, verified I can power up a HD/SSD using an LPS 1.2. Will try some comparisons using the LPS 1.2

as power source between

 

existing Lexar USB3 attached media stack with 2x 512GB  SDXC

Sabrent disk device with  generic 5400 RPM 500GB HD

Sabrent disk device with 128GB Crucal MX100 SSD

 

not the latest greatest media storage tech, but will see...

[sandyk]

Sometimes with an existing PC it is possible to plug a SATA cable directly into the HDD inside the enclosure and the other end of the SATA cable through an opening in the PC's case. Just keep the SATA cable short.

[davide256]

12 hours ago, davide256 said:

Dusted off an old Sabrent "toaster" for 2.5/3.5" drives, believe it only does SATA II but does support USB3.

It accepts 12V DC, verified I can power up a HD/SSD using an LPS 1.2. Will try some comparisons using the LPS 1.2

as power source between

 

existing Lexar USB3 attached media stack with 2x 512GB  SDXC

Sabrent disk device with  generic 5400 RPM 500GB HD

Sabrent disk device with 128GB Crucal MX100 SSD

 

not the latest greatest media storage tech, but will see...

Could take a while for comparisons  as each listening comparison  requires rebooting server and 

switching media type &/or connections

 

Did a first pass with CD soundtrack of Dances with Wolves, John Barry composer. 

 

HD sound was pleasant, detailed, good tone color but seemed rolled off on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SSD was aggressively bright but much better on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SDXC was better balanced than SSD, with same correctness on highs and hard sound transients but still seemed a little forward

on overall treble spectrum

What I  noted with both SSD and SDXC was a tendency to excite what I believe is 3rd order harmonic distortion. Using max oversampling

in Roon with SSD and SDXC  to push DAC chip distortion components higher in frequency mitigated aggressiveness  but

spectrum balance differences remained. With HD I preferred no oversampling.

 

[abulr]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:15 PM, davide256 said:

I suspect there is a trade off where an SSD while not bad in and of itself, can be  a bad USB out  neighbor inside the computer chassis. I don't believe that read errors are the issue here so much as an electrically dirty environment from read activity causing bad sound with USB out. I'd prefer to see digital audio players read playlists to memory and "lock out" disk read/write during audio processing.

 

This is what i mean - why don't audio programs do this already? surprising - i read that BitPerfect loads into memory... idk

[davide256]

On 4/28/2019 at 10:12 AM, davide256 said:

Could take a while for comparisons  as each listening comparison  requires rebooting server and 

switching media type &/or connections

 

Did a first pass with CD soundtrack of Dances with Wolves, John Barry composer. 

 

HD sound was pleasant, detailed, good tone color but seemed rolled off on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SSD was aggressively bright but much better on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SDXC was better balanced than SSD, with same correctness on highs and hard sound transients but still seemed a little forward

on overall treble spectrum

What I  noted with both SSD and SDXC was a tendency to excite what I believe is 3rd order harmonic distortion. Using max oversampling

in Roon with SSD and SDXC  to push DAC chip distortion components higher in frequency mitigated aggressiveness  but

spectrum balance differences remained. With HD I preferred no oversampling.

 

Still playing around with this

 

1) tried a 3.5" 4TB WD Red, possibly a little duller on transients than the 500GB 2.5" drive, not an appreciable difference

2) discovering that treble aggressiveness depends on the quality of PS used with server NUC and media drives. On continued listening

with stock SMPS on server and LPS 1.2 with 2.5" drive I could hear aggressiveness in mid treble... I suspect the dilution of upper treble

masked this initially vs SDXC/SSD. Dedicating the SoTM SPS-500 to the server NUC greatly reduced the edgy aggressive sound of massed high pitch violins

and electronic sounds for both 2.5" and SDXC media drives.

3) have ordered a 1TB 7200 RPM 2.5 Seagate Barracuda pro (no SSD components) and a newer 12v docking station that does support SATA III as

its possible that slower SATAII/drive RPM's could be affecting treble transients.

[highstream]

If not too far off topic, I'd like to jump in here with a side question, having read Nenon's introductory summary post... In my living room system, I play music from a modified Oppo 203 (digital only) to a DirectStream dac (s/pdif and iFi spdif purifier w/SR4), and then onto ATC active floorstanders and JL Audio subs (+ better cables, power, etc.). While I have a slew of mostly older CDs, it's easier most of the time to play music files -- mostly flac, dsd, wav, w/ some mp3 -- either using a USB flash drive plugged into the 203 or, most frequently, an encased SSD connected to the 203 via a Totaldac USB cable/filter (the latter used to be part of my mostly disassembled desktop PC audio system). Control is via remotes (203, dac). In light of this thread, how would you see this use of USB/SSD? Keeping it simple so far, I don't have a streamer, and haven't set up a router extension to use the DirectStream's Bridge card to play music from my Win 10 laptop or iPad Mini. Thanks,

[Ralf11]

that's fine - the Oppo has a good DAC in it

 

if a concern you may be able to find a way to galvanically isolate the storage unit from the Oppo