Merging Hapi - A few words about one of the best DACs I ever listened to, and that money can buy to make happy an Audiophile like me.

[tailspn]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

My plan is HQPlayer Embedded (headless and fanless Linux build) playing direct to DAC, everything up-sampled to DSD256... thanks to the recent Ravenna ALSA driver. It will take @Miska a little while to incorporate the ALSA driver but that's only a matter of time. He's a pretty sharp young lad 🙂

 

Sounds like a plan! I hope you receive from Merging the answers to your questions that you like.

 

But why do you care if you're front ending Anubis with HQPlayer tightly coupled? The PCM anything > DSD256 will be accomplished in HQPlayer, and Anubis will only ever see DSD256. In your position, I'd be more interested in knowing from Merging the specifics of what, if anything, they do with a DSD256 imputed bit stream. I'm only experienced with what Merging does under Pyramix, and that's a straight playout. With the recordings I make in DSD256, they're so noticeably more realistic from not having to do DSD > DXD/PCM > DSD conversions (due to the non loss of low level spatial cues resulting from DSD > DXD > DSD conversions), that I never question how they do it.

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, tailspn said:

But why do you care if you're front ending Anubis with HQPlayer tightly coupled? The PCM anything > DSD256 will be accomplished in HQPlayer, and Anubis will only ever see DSD256

 

Noted and This is exactly why I mentioned a few times, the disclaimer that I’m asking out of general interest only. And why I also mentioned this info (what happens to PCM) is not a deal breaker for me.

 

It’s genuinely just personal general interest, eapecially since you mentioned the 9028 only ever sees 1 bit SDM (DSD).

 

If that is true then PCM must be being upsampled to DSD128 or DSD256? 

 

Hopefully Merging can clarify.

 

8 minutes ago, tailspn said:

In your position, I'd be more interested in knowing from Merging the specifics of what, if anything, they do with a DSD256 imputed bit stream.

 

Yes naturally this is what I’m most interested in. Hopefully Merging can clarify.

 

 

[tailspn]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Hopefully Merging can clarify.

Yes naturally this is what I’m most interested in. Hopefully Merging can clarify.

 

 

Well, my only suggestion is don't wear out your welcome. They're unbelievably busy with this and future roll-outs, that if you do get an answer of this level of technical detail, aimed at an application the product is not marketed towards, you'll probably only get one bite of the apple. I'd shy away from asking general interest questions, and focus on the one most important to you 

[asdf1000]

19 minutes ago, tailspn said:

They're unbelievably busy with this and future roll-outs, that if you do get an answer of this level of technical detail, aimed at an application the product is not marketed towards, you'll probably only get one bite of the apple. 

 

That is unfortunate, as regardless if it’s not marketed to me, I would expect a professional response from their Technical Team if I’m paying the same price as a Pro user.

 

But I know exactly what you’re talking about. That’s unfortunately how the real world can be sometimes.

 

On the other hand, @matthias actually is very interested in what happens to PCM.

 

So I hope between the two of us we can get an answer! 🙂

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, tailspn said:

Well, my only suggestion is don't wear out your welcome.

 

The other thing is the answer should literally be a couple of lines.. I've had lengthy discussions with some of the world's most famous DAC designers directly and none have been worn out by such a simple question like "what happens to the various PCM rates in your DAC".

 

I would really hope that isn't enough to wear out a Merging Engineer...

 

And most Engineers are proud enough of their work/products that they're happy to spend a little time (not too much) answering technical queries from either existing or genuinely excited future customers.

 

If the answer turns out to be, 'all PCM rates are up-sampled to DSD256 before reaching the 9028 for conversion to analogue' this would hardly be something earth shattering in the D-to-A world and hardly revealing of any IP...

 

Fingers crossed they can help us with such a simple query...

 

If I can't get through to any Merging Engineer, @matthias and I would greatly appreciate if you could use your contacts to seek these answers for us. You definitely have the industry 'weight' to be able to get a quick answer to these two very simple questions:

 

1. "What format and sample rate are the various PCM content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

 

2. "What format and sample rate are the various DSD content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

 

 

[asdf1000]

One of the only things holding me back from Anubis is actually thinking ahead to where Hapi + DA8P will suit me better.

 

Because I plan to put together an active loudspeaker setup next year, with DSP crossover/up-sampling/DRC all handled within HQPlayer. This would need an 8-channel DAC. Hapi and DA8P would suit perfectly, especially if I can up-sample to DSD256 to all 8-channels, all over the network (if I can build a computer powerful enough).

 

It might make more sense for me to get Hapi and just use it as a 2-channel DAC for now, until next year when I move to do the active DSP speaker setup.

 

The 2 simple questions above I have for Merging, remain identical for both Anubis and Hapi.

[matthias]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

One of the only things holding me back from Anubis is actually thinking ahead to where Hapi + DA8P will suit me better.

 

Because I plan to put together an active loudspeaker setup next year, with DSP crossover/up-sampling/DRC all handled within HQPlayer. This would need an 8-channel DAC. Hapi and DA8P would suit perfectly, especially if I can up-sample to DSD256 to all 8-channels, all over the network (if I can build a computer powerful enough).

 

It might make more sense for me to get Hapi and just use it as a 2-channel DAC for now, until next year when I move to do the active DSP speaker setup.

 

The 2 simple questions above I have for Merging, remain identical for both Anubis and Hapi.

 

I am at the moment too happy with my passive two-way speaker system to change anything in this regard.

But the only thing holding me back from Anubis are the good reports from @ferenc and others about the Holo Spring2. @ferenc uses both Hapi and Spring2 and mentioned that these are way ahead from the competition he tried.

The Holo as NOS DAC is perfect for software upsampling of PCM and DSD.

 

Matt

 

 

[ferenc]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

I am at the moment too happy with my passive two-way speaker system to change anything in this regard.

But the only thing holding me back from Anubis are the good reports from @ferenc and others about the Holo Spring2. @ferenc uses both Hapi and Spring2 and mentioned that these are way ahead from the competition he tried.

The Holo as NOS DAC is perfect for software upsampling of PCM and DSD.

 

Matt

 

 

 

Yes, I like both a lot. I found Hapi more independent from the PC from where you are running Hqplayer and the Spring 2 a bit better dealing with less quality recordings. 

[matthias]

I hope it will be possible to listen to Anubis at HIGH END Munich this year and Merging will not only demonstrate their NADAC gear which is not my cup of tea.

And maybe I get there my questions answered.......

 

Matt

[matthias]

54 minutes ago, ferenc said:

 

Yes, I like both a lot. I found Hapi more independent from the PC from where you are running Hqplayer and the Spring 2 a bit better dealing with less quality recordings. 

 

ferenc,

which one would you recommend for streaming from Qobuz with a new MBP?

Thanks

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

And maybe I get there my questions answered.......

 

If you do see them at Munich please do ask them these two very simple questions:

 

1. "What format and sample rate are the various PCM content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

 

2. "What format and sample rate are the various DSD content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

If you do see them at Munich please do ask them these two very simple questions:

 

1. "What format and sample rate are the various PCM content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

 

2. "What format and sample rate are the various DSD content rates converted to, before reaching the ES9028PRO chip in the DA8P DAC"

 

Of course, my friend.

 

Matt

[matthias]

@Em2016

From the Merging HP:

 

How does HORUS/HAPI process DSD to and from Pyramix over RAVENNA?

Internally, the HORUS/HAPI actually processes and moves the DSD signal in a 352.8kHz / 32bit stream. It is not converted to actual PCM, rather the raw DSD data is just transported in this manner.

A DSD64 stream actually only uses 8 bits of the possible 32bits.

A DSD128 stream uses 16bits

A DSD256 stream uses all 32bits.

The DXD (352.8kHz PCM stream) uses the 24bits

All of these DSD stream types are actually multiples of 352.8, itself being a multiple of 44.1 kHz.
Therefore, for the HORUS/HAPI mainboard there’s no real difference between all these 4 formats. That’s only the AD and DA that are configured automatically and transparently according to the streams they are receiving audio from or sending audio to.
In fact as far as only playback or DA is concerned, you can set your HORUS/HAPI unit to DSD or DXD, that’ll make no difference. It’s only the way the Pyramix projects are configured that will define if audio is sent directly as DSD (when using DSD projects) or converted to DXD (when using DXD projects)

 

Matt

[tailspn]

17 hours ago, Em2016 said:

One of the only things holding me back from Anubis is actually thinking ahead to where Hapi + DA8P will suit me better.

 

That would make more functional sense, although almost twice as expensive.  Additionally, as I understand from Jussi Laako, he now working to get Merging Hapi verified for 4.0.1.

 

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

@Em2016

From the Merging HP:

 

How does HORUS/HAPI process DSD to and from Pyramix over RAVENNA?

Internally, the HORUS/HAPI actually processes and moves the DSD signal in a 352.8kHz / 32bit stream. It is not converted to actual PCM, rather the raw DSD data is just transported in this manner.

A DSD64 stream actually only uses 8 bits of the possible 32bits.

A DSD128 stream uses 16bits

A DSD256 stream uses all 32bits.

The DXD (352.8kHz PCM stream) uses the 24bits

All of these DSD stream types are actually multiples of 352.8, itself being a multiple of 44.1 kHz.
Therefore, for the HORUS/HAPI mainboard there’s no real difference between all these 4 formats. That’s only the AD and DA that are configured automatically and transparently according to the streams they are receiving audio from or sending audio to.
In fact as far as only playback or DA is concerned, you can set your HORUS/HAPI unit to DSD or DXD, that’ll make no difference. It’s only the way the Pyramix projects are configured that will define if audio is sent directly as DSD (when using DSD projects) or converted to DXD (when using DXD projects)

 

Matt

 

Nice info. Unfortunately this only addresses how the formats are sent over the network- not how the PCM and DSD formats are converted from D to A.

 

[matthias]

19 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Nice info. Unfortunately this only addresses how the formats are sent over the network- not how the PCM and DSD formats are converted from D to A.

 

 My impression is that Hapi does not convert the incoming signal either PCM or DSD with some sort of DSP, at least with Pyramix.

The question is what happens when you feed Hapi with other sources like PCM or DSD from Audirvana for example.

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

9-15Vdc power input. PoE also.

 

Headphone output is finally something excellent from Merging, < 1-ohm output impedance.

 

[matthias]

11 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

9-15Vdc power input. PoE also.

 

Headphone output is finally something excellent from Merging, < 1-ohm output impedance.

 

 

Looks nice, do you have a link?

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

18 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Looks nice, do you have a link?

 

Matt

 

This is all I got from a friend, who got it from a dealer.

 

21st March is the official launch (as mentioned in the YouTube teaser) so I expect full details to be up on Merging's site within the next 24 hours.

 

[tailspn]

51 minutes ago, matthias said:

 My impression is that Hapi does not convert the incoming signal either PCM or DSD with some sort of DSP, at least with Pyramix.

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt

 

I agree with the first part of your sentence as applied to the communications within Hapi/Hours, and wonder if you meant the second part as written. The second part; "at least with Pyramix" should read "except with Pyramix". Pyramix; a software Digital Work Station (DAW), is both a file handling and management system, and a digital signal processing system.  That's what all the format conversion parts and plug-ins do.

 

However, the DA8 or DA8P DAC boards actual DAC stage is a combination of two primary components; a DSP processor and separate ESS9028 DAC chip. It's my understanding only the Sigma-Delta Modulator output stage of the 9028 is used, and the separate DSP processor performs the functions of the onboard dsp processor of a 9028/9038 chip, with Merging's proprietary algorithms.

 

https://www.merging.com/products/interfaces/specifications#d-a8-d-a8-p-option-card

 

The DSP is the larger of the two chips.

 

Tom

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, tailspn said:

The DSP is the larger of the two chips.

 

In the NADAC it's easier to see that it's a Xilinx Spartan FPGA.

 

Rob Watts (Chord Electronics) and Ted Smith (PSA DirectStream DAC) and others use Xilinx FPGA's (different models) for their DSP. So not a revolutionary concept but of course Merging use their own proprietary DSP code as you mentioned.

 

I can't see a close-up of Hapi/Horus but assume it's similar/same FPGA.

 

[asdf1000]

Looks fantastic! I need to demo this with my headphones.

 

 

[matthias]

16 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Looks fantastic! I need to demo this with my headphones.

 

 

 

Sexy, but quite small.-)

 

Matt

[bmoura]

6 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Looks fantastic! I need to demo this with my headphones.

 

 

 

I was wondering the same thing.  Would Anubis be a hot ticket for headphone listeners?  Hmm....

 

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, bmoura said:

I was wondering the same thing.  Would Anubis be a hot ticket for headphone listeners?  Hmm....

 

 

NADAC headphone out impedance is 40 ohms. Hapi and Horus 75 ohms. Nothing excellent there.

 

Anubis is < 1 ohm and very low distortion according to my friend who contacted the dealer. So this could finally be something decent for headphone output.

 

But need to know more details though and of course have a listen.