Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[HeeBroG]

Can anyone help me understand how Euphony Stylus continues playing for several minutes  when streaming even if I disconnect the ethernet cable.

 

On  16/44 album, it even loads the next song. I didn't leave it disconnected for more than a few minutes but was surprised it continues playing.

 

When loading a new track, there is a short burst of network activity but I have no idea how much it is actually pulling from Tidal.

 

I guess it must store the file or part of it somewhere on the server even if not in RAM.

 

Just wondering🤨

 

Geoff

 

 

[Holzohr]

Željko asked me to share the Playing from RAM in Euphony article. In generally he begs us to check out the whole knowledge base more often. Lot of answers there. 🙂

 

 

Quote

Playing from RAM in Euphony

 

While the song is playing it is beneficial to sound quality to reduce other system activity that would normally occur: reading song bytes from storage or network.

The best way to do this is to preload the whole song to RAM before playing. Euphony tries to do that whenever possible but the exact functionality and extent of buffering depend on several factors:

• song location - local (disk or network) or online (Tidal, Qobuz) 
• output location - local DAC or UPnP endpoint
• player in use - Stylus, StylusEP, Roon, RoonBridge, Squeezelite, HQPe

I will try to cover all possible combinations and explain what exactly happens in terms of buffering a song to RAM.

Stylus

Stylus player will preload local songs to RAM before playing only if the 'Buffer before play = 100%' option is enabled.

Online songs will be always buffered to RAM (regardless of 100% buffer option) but if a new song is added to the queue and the play starts immediately then the buffering will happen during playback. Buffering happens at max network speed so this network activity will go in parallel to playback for at least 5-10 seconds of playback - depending on your network speed, song quality and song length.

However, if you just add the song to the queue and you wait until it is downloaded in full and only then you start the playback, the song will play without any additional network activity - it will be fully played from RAM from the start to end.

This is also valid for the next song if you add at least two songs. Second song will be also downloaded in the background at the same time so if you add at least 2 songs to the queue from online sources you will have to wait until both are fully buffered to have a chance at 'clean' 100% buffered playback.

Note that if you add more than 2 songs to queue and you wait until first two are fully buffered before playback in the moment when first finishes and second starts playing the download of the third song will start in the background and you will not have a clean playback of the second or any of the following songs in the queue except the last one.

Stylus also has 'Buffer albums added to queue' setting and 'Buffer queue' command. This setting only has an effect on local songs. 

These will both do the same thing - buffer all songs present in the queue to RAM. However, if you add the album with Add & Play the playback of the first song will start without waiting for the whole album to be buffered so your first song will not play in a clean way (but all others will). Of course, it is possible that the whole queue or the whole album added to the queue will not fit in available free RAM. In that case buffering will stop when there is not enough space. Songs that were not buffered will be buffered at the moment when they are next to play (remember that Stylus always buffer current and the next song).

While it would be easy to implement the buffering of the whole online album we are just not allowed to do that with the API we are using.

Stylus + HQplayer

When HQPe is enabled in Stylus and the source is Qobuz the file will be downloaded fully to RAM before actual playback (this is because we noticed that HQPe sometimes won't play Qobuz song urls). Tidal songs played through HQPe will not be buffered at all.

Stylus to UPnP endpoint

When Stylus output device is UPnP Renderer endpoint Euphony will fully buffer an online song before offering playback url to the UPnP Renderer. Playback URL offered is local url pointing to the song location in RAM drive, This means there is still network traffic between Euphony and Renderer but there is no other internet traffic during UPnP playback, Stylus always serves local URLs because some UPnP renderers require special UPnP-specific header fields that online music services don't provide so playback fails (and there is no way to detect if Renderer will play an URL until this is actually tried.)

Stylus and 'Use cache' option

Option 'Use cache' is a convenience option which will make copy of any song added to queue from external resources (mounted USB drives or network shares) and put it in special /data/Music/E_CACHE folder. Next time you need those songs they will be accessed from that cache. This can help in several ways:

• Songs that you listen often will be available even if your external storage is not attached or your network share not connected.
• Songs will load faster (if your Euphony installation drive is fast) and there will be much less usb or network traffic. If buffering options are not enabled this can also improve sound quality.
• If used in conjunction with '100% buffer' and 'Buffer albums added to queue', where you want an ideal situation: to listen the whole album from RAM with absolutely zero unnecessary background activity or network traffic - then your waiting time for the whole album to be buffered is much shortened! And even in situations when the whole album cannot fit in RAM, buffering at the moment of playback of the songs that did not fit will go from cache and will be much faster and have minimum impact on listening experience.

To clarify the last point: while album buffering will stop when there is no space left in RAM (rest of the songs will not be buffered), buffering of individual songs at the time of playback will expunge already played buffered songs from RAM to make space for current one.

On the same note - once the cache is filled (there is no more space on Euphony /data partition) 'oldest' songs (those that were first added to cache) will be removed in order to make space for new ones.

Roon 

We don't know that much about Roon's internal workings but we do know that Roon will never serve an online URL directly to its endpoint (whichever endpoint is in use). Roon maintains a http server on which it serves the URL of its music stream. This stream can contain one song (endpoint will get another url for next song when first finishes) or it can contain many songs which are all served on the same URL as one continuous stream (much like ordinary online radio streams). It does not matter if the original song is a local song or an online song - Roon behaves in the same way,

All this points to some kind of preloading happening on the Roon side but from what we were able to gather while testing our StylusEP endpoint as Roon endpoint, and from monitoring network activity, we concluded that Roon does not actually preload the whole song. It does have some sort of memory buffer but it does not encompass the whole song to be played. This severely limits our options for buffering on the endpoint side but we cannot do anything about it. 

StylusEP as Roon endpoint

StylusEP can serve as an endpoint to Roon  (on the same machine or on the endpoint machine). Unfortunately, since Roon does not provide the whole song on its streaming URL, StylusEP can only buffer the amount of data available. As endpoint reports to Roon its playback position Roon decides when to provide more data based on that position (we did not investigate when this exactly happens, does it depend on percentages, on amount of data played or something else).

This all means that songs served from Roon cannot be played in full without intermediate network traffic somewhere during the playback time (probably happening multiple times). StylusEP will always try to read as much data as is available on Roon stream as fast as possible but there is no way to avoid network traffic during playback of a song.

StylusEP as Stylus endpoint

Stylus and SylusEP can be employed in two machine setup. When StylusEP plays a song served by Stylus then StylusEP will preload the whole song before playback. Stylus itself will respect 100% buffer and Buffer album added to queue flags itself and will keep songs in server RAM but StylusEP will pre-download those songs from Stylus server only one at a time, before playback.

Other players

Squeezelite or HQPe as Roon endpoints cannot do any better than StylusEP in terms of buffering - there will always be network traffic but for how long and in what intervals depends, in addition to Roon's buffering dynamic, to the buffer sizes in these applications.

 

[HeeBroG]

Another question about Euphony Stylus when streaming Tidal.

 

When streaming 16/44 files, I noticed the Instant Bit Rate varies anywhere between 100Kbps to 900Kpbs.

 

Why is that different to the Instant Bit Rate of 1411Kbps when playing 16/44 local files and does it make any difference to sound quality?

 

I just wondered if there is something wrong with my network causing a limitation that I might need to improve.

 

I have 100Mbps Modem/Router and switch.

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff

[ASRMichael]

@romaz

 

I not sure we’ll get a response but I’m sure Euphony users would love to know how Euphony sounds in your Taiko Extreme? 
 

Have you done a comparison yet with Euphony v Emile’s optimized Windows? 

[romaz]

Unfortunately, this has not yet happened for a couple of reasons.  First, when I tried to load Euphony from a USB stick shortly after I received my Extreme, it would not load and so I knew I would have to take my Extreme down from my rack, connect it to a monitor and keyboard, and look at the BIOS to make the necessary adjustments for it to boot.  This has not been convenient to do as the Extreme is so heavy (nearly 100 lbs).  Second, my motivation to do it is now less because I am reliant on a certain piece of software for SQ that runs only on Windows and so I know in my situation, Euphony would not be viable.

 

Having said that, Emile has tested Euphony on the Extreme and this is perhaps another reason I have not felt as motivated to try it since I trust Emile's ears.  The Extreme was designed from the ground up to run Windows and Roon and so the hardware choices were made to specifically counter the sound penalties imposed by both Windows and Roon.  In other words, Emile found it necessary to use 2 Xeons and nearly all 20 cores to allow Windows and Roon to be as transparent (or invisible) as possible.  Not surprisingly, Emile found the Extreme to sound best with his tailored version of Windows as the 2 were really made for each other.

 

Would Euphony sound as good with a hardware profile specifically designed to meet Euphony's needs?  This is being explored now by Taiko Audio and that's all I will say.

 

I know there's a lot of debate about which OS is best for audio playback.  In the end, it comes down to personal preference as all the OS's I've tried have had their pros and cons and so the only way to know for sure what YOU like is to try and compare.  While Windows can sound REALLY good, it requires a lot of resources and "know how" to make it sound really good whereas Euphony sounds really good right out of the box.

 

Ultimately, my time with Euphony was a breath of fresh air.  The competent and responsive support I got from Željko was every bit as good as what I get from Emile and this is saying a lot.

[AudioDoctor]

Guys, I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this question...

 

I decided to play with Euphony tonight after hearing so many good things about it. I downloaded the image, downloaded Etcher, made the bootable disk image, rebooted the machine... Everything seemed to be going well until it stopped at a screen that said, nothing else needs to be done on this screen, and underneath that was a prompt for a login.

 

I tried this on a 2011 Mac mini 

[Dev]

22 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Guys, I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this question...

 

I decided to play with Euphony tonight after hearing so many good things about it. I downloaded the image, downloaded Etcher, made the bootable disk image, rebooted the machine... Everything seemed to be going well until it stopped at a screen that said, nothing else needs to be done on this screen, and underneath that was a prompt for a login.

 

I tried this on a 2011 Mac mini 

 

Yes, there is nothing to be done on the console. If the Mac mini is connected to the network, you can open a web browser from another PC or laptop and type http://euphony.local to get into the web gui.

[AudioDoctor]

20 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Yes, there is nothing to be done on the console. If the Mac mini is connected to the network, you can open a web browser from another PC or laptop and type http://euphony.local to get into the web gui.

Yes, I know.  The picture below is the screen I was at... The problem appears to be the machine, when booted from the Euphony USB has problems remaining connected to the network even though it is hardwired. I rebooted it all and it was then able to be discovered on the local network...  Signing into Roon though continued to give network errors...

 

I booted it back into Mac OS and Roon Server and HQPlayer are working fine, which is what I want all along.

 

 

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Yes, I know.  The picture below is the screen I was at... The problem appears to be the machine, when booted from the Euphony USB has problems remaining connected to the network even though it is hardwired. I rebooted it all and it was then able to be discovered on the local network...  Signing into Roon though continued to give network errors...

 

I booted it back into Mac OS and Roon Server and HQPlayer are working fine, which is what I want all along.

 

 

 

It's been a while since I did this, but I recall on first boot from a USB stick, it can take several minutes for the system to fully configure. In fact, it says on that screenshot to wait 4-6 minutes. I'd give it another shot and let the system be for a spell. When the system is fully configured, you'll also see the IP address of the system displayed in a light blue (cyan?) font above the login prompt. 

 

After that, it should be fully functional. Subsequent boots won't incur this delay.

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, austinpop said:

 

It's been a while since I did this, but I recall on first boot from a USB stick, it can take several minutes for the system to fully configure. In fact, it says on that screenshot to wait 4-6 minutes. I'd give it another shot and let the system be for a spell. When the system is fully configured, you'll also see the IP address of the system displayed in a light blue (cyan?) font above the login prompt. 

 

After that, it should be fully functional. Subsequent boots won't incur this delay.

 

Yep, you're right, another boot did it. But I was never able to get music to output. It kept giving me network errors, HQPlayer errors, and I was unable to sign into Roon Core with the username and password I know was right because I copy and pasted it from 1password, unless I need a NEW password for the Euphony device?

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Yep, you're right, another boot did it. But I was never able to get music to output. It kept giving me network errors, HQPlayer errors, and I was unable to sign into Roon Core with the username and password I know was right because I copy and pasted it from 1password, unless I need a NEW password for the Euphony device?

 

What "audio system" are you starting on the Euhony web UI? I'd start with just Roon core just to get that path working. I'm not an HQPlayer user, so others will have to advise on that. Once you start Roon core, go to the Settings and make sure your DAC is visible, and use the pull down to ensure all the usual settings you use (in my case, for example, DoP, fixed volume) are correct.

 

As for Roon, not sure why you're having login issues, I've not had any trouble there.

 

If problems persist, open a support ticket. Željko is very responsive. Keep in mind he's in the Central European timezone, as he's located in Croatia.

[AudioDoctor]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

What "audio system" are you starting on the Euhony web UI? I'd start with just Roon core just to get that path working. I'm not an HQPlayer user, so others will have to advise on that. Once you start Roon core, go to the Settings and make sure your DAC is visible, and use the pull down to ensure all the usual settings you use (in my case, for example, DoP, fixed volume) are correct.

 

As for Roon, not sure why you're having login issues, I've not had any trouble there.

 

If problems persist, open a support ticket. Željko is very responsive. Keep in mind he's in the Central European timezone, as he's located in Croatia.

 

Thank you for your suggestions. Right now, I am going to try again tomorrow.

[BCRich]

Good evening all. I have a question, I am listening to Pink Floyd “The Wall” using Stylus + HQPe on my Summus.

I have been completely Buffering Albums before playback and also using Cache settings. Anyone have an idea as to why the tracks are not being played gap less? Tried not using cache, tried not buffering, tried add and play. All scenarios the same, not playing gap less. Just tried it in Roon + HQPe, plays fine....

Spoils things if ya know what I mean. Appreciate the feedback.

Mike

[Dev]

11 minutes ago, BCRich said:

Good evening all. I have a question, I am listening to Pink Floyd “The Wall” using Stylus + HQPe on my Summus.

I have been completely Buffering Albums before playback and also using Cache settings. Anyone have an idea as to why the tracks are not being played gap less? Tried not using cache, tried not buffering, tried add and play. All scenarios the same, not playing gap less. Just tried it in Roon + HQPe, plays fine....

Spoils things if ya know what I mean. Appreciate the feedback.

Mike

 

I know what you mean, especially with with PF albums 😞 I may be wrong but don't think gapless playback is supported in Stylus currently. The gapless playback is different from buffering to cache or RAM. However, it would be good to file a support ticket.

[BCRich]

Thanks, I have only have the Summus about 2 weeks. Still getting familiar with Stylus. I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I will submit a ticket, I’ve been hammering Zeljko, they have been really awesome.

[austinpop]

On 5/3/2020 at 12:11 AM, Dev said:

I may be wrong but don't think gapless playback is supported in Stylus currently.

Not at all. Stylus playback is gapless for me. And has been in all the time I’ve used it...

[Dev]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Not at all. Stylus playback is gapless for me. And has been in all the time I’ve used it...

humm...doesn’t work for me..there is always a second or two gap between songs. Is there a setting to turn this on/off ?

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

humm...doesn’t work for me..there is always a second or two gap between songs. Is there a setting to turn this on/off ?

 

Not sure what to tell you. I use Stylus standalone (single machine), outputting to my USB-connected HMS/DAVE. Are you using Stylus > HQPlayer or something? If so, all bets are off - I don't know about that path.

 

Also, do you have buffering and caching flags ON?

[Dev]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Not sure what to tell you. I use Stylus standalone (single machine), outputting to my USB-connected HMS/DAVE. Are you using Stylus > HQPlayer or something? If so, all bets are off - I don't know about that path.

 

Also, do you have buffering and caching flags ON?

yes, Stylus in a single machine with DAC directly connected. I don’t use Hqplayer.
 

Yes, buffering and caching all turned on. 

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

yes, Stylus in a single machine with DAC directly connected. I don’t use Hqplayer.
 

Yes, buffering and caching all turned on. 

 

Željko time, then. Gapless works here...

[BCRich]

Ticket submitted....Zeljko responded, Gapless Playback only supported in Stylus alone. Not in conjunction with HQP.

[audiofool1982]

Hi guys

 

I had Euphony trial installed on a USB stick connected to my server. Its the server that I bought from Rick on audiophilestyle which already had audio linux installed but I didnt want audio linux. I also had the HQPlayer server on this server and my renderer is an antipodes EX. I sucessfully changed the boot order on the asus UEFI boot and its booting from the USB now.

 

Because I liked it, I bought the license for Euphony OS and also the HQ Player. I updated the registration code and the key on the setttings menu. However in the bottom of the page, it still says trial and 29 days left. Why? Do I have the delete the trial version and reinstall everything again?

 

Also I am not able to boot from the RAM. I still have to have the USB plugged in. I have a ASUS motherboard. What bios settings should I use to make the server boot without the USB? Please help.

 

I also uploaded the HQ Player license key. However, in the systems settings, it still says HQPlayer trial. Not sure Why?

any thoughts?

[Holzohr]

7 minutes ago, audiofool1982 said:

Because I liked it, I bought the license for Euphony OS and also the HQ Player. I updated the registration code and the key on the setttings menu. However in the bottom of the page, it still says trial and 29 days left. Why? Do I have the delete the trial version and reinstall everything again?

 

Also I am not able to boot from the RAM. I still have to have the USB plugged in. I have a ASUS motherboard. What bios settings should I use to make the server boot without the USB? Please help.

 

Did you make the installation on your hard disk/ssd at all? After updating the registration code Euphony does offer this install option. The hard disk/ssd must be blank. Did you remove the Audiolinux installation before?

https://euphony-audio.com/hesk/knowledgebase.php?article=2

[audiofool1982]

@Holzohr I did not delete the audiolinux OS. The server I believe has optane RAM and has audiolinux installed. I am not sure how to delete it using BIOS. Any thoughts?

[Holzohr]

@audiofool1982 Hmm.. maybe it is even possible with Audiolinux bootet in RAM. Maybe an Audiolinux user can give you support.

 

Or with help of a Linux Live USB drive. I use for such things Ubuntu. Then start the programm GParted and remove all the Audiolinux partitions so the Optane drive is blank. Just found there is a GParted Live for USB drives.

 

Good luck!