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Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

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On 10/27/2019 at 9:28 PM, Lukasluis said:

I too find Euphony Stylus' timing and dynamics to be off in my system thus I use Euphony RoonCore (NUC directly connected to DAC). Can you try and let us know if switching to Roon makes a noticeable improvement in timing and dynamics.

 

Hello. Unfortunately my testing period with Roon is already gone. At the time, I had tried Roon against JPLAY FEMTO, and I considered Roon worse in sound quality. Either way, even better, I'd never pay the price for its lifetime license.

 

On 10/27/2019 at 9:36 PM, AnotherSpin said:

 

Would you please mention which components you use to get such wonderful audio from Windows? Thank you.

 

I didn't understand your question exactly. On my computer I use only Windows Server 2019 Datacenter in Core mode, Audiophile Optimizer v. 3.00, JPLAY FEMTO and Minority Clean, all running from RAM, besides making over dozens network and BIOS adjustments. Thus, the SSD works exclusively for transporting music files. But, let's leave that to when they open a specific thread.

 

The big thing is that in my experiments over the years I've never been able to make the network connection between two computers outperform one computer alone while relying on a router or switch to do the IP and network management work. That is, neither bridge connection, router, nor switch played better than a single computer. What the bridge connection does is simplify the path and allow only one cable, but still has absolute dependency on the router for network management. So these "standard" Linux provided to us don't work as well. But, once I learned how to set it up correctly, without the computers relying on the router's DHCP anyway, then both Windows computers started playing substantially better than anything I experienced. I think one of the secrets is on the network, but only one of them, and there's much more behind it, such as the manufacturer-specific Windows drivers.

 

On 10/27/2019 at 10:08 PM, Chopin75 said:

Sorry, remind me again, are you doing euphony RamBoot from USB stick ?  How do you run windows again? Is it inside a  M2 drive or other drive ? 

 

I don't use M.2 because I consider the SSD, with 5v linear power supply and audio grade SATA cable deliver better sound. I tried the internal and external storage. Since Windows is loaded into the RAM from a .vhd file, I can easily swap it through GRUB4DOS.

 

I'm far from saying that I know how to teach someone how to set up a computer. Adjustments are personal and depend on a number of factors. But in my case, I've achieved something very interesting over almost 10 years experimenting. The fact that Linux has few possible tweaks can help, but it is also a limiter when trying to get the most out of a computer. So, or the user is committed to an "easy ride" solution (Euphony is the best alternative I've experienced with this bias), or an effectively audiophile solution. In this case, personally, I prefer Windows, which to me sounds at the top level.

 

To see how there's a difference: I tried several frequencies of the Core i3-8100T processor. Between 3.10GHz and 2.40GHz there's no sonic difference using Windows. But, with Euphony, using 3.10GHz plays better, as Nenon suggested. Therefore each case is very particular. It's not easy to get the most out, so, I like to have a lot of adjustment variables. I don't spend days or waste time testing more than listening. Adjustments have been occurring gradually over many years and many more hours of listening. That's why I won't waste time on a Linux anymore.

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3 hours ago, FelipeRolim said:

 

Hello. Unfortunately my testing period with Roon is already gone. At the time, I had tried Roon against JPLAY FEMTO, and I considered Roon worse in sound quality. Either way, even better, I'd never pay the price for its lifetime license.

 

 

I didn't understand your question exactly. On my computer I use only Windows Server 2019 Datacenter in Core mode, Audiophile Optimizer v. 3.00, JPLAY FEMTO and Minority Clean, all running from RAM, besides making over dozens network and BIOS adjustments. Thus, the SSD works exclusively for transporting music files. But, let's leave that to when they open a specific thread.

 

The big thing is that in my experiments over the years I've never been able to make the network connection between two computers outperform one computer alone while relying on a router or switch to do the IP and network management work. That is, neither bridge connection, router, nor switch played better than a single computer. What the bridge connection does is simplify the path and allow only one cable, but still has absolute dependency on the router for network management. So these "standard" Linux provided to us don't work as well. But, once I learned how to set it up correctly, without the computers relying on the router's DHCP anyway, then both Windows computers started playing substantially better than anything I experienced. I think one of the secrets is on the network, but only one of them, and there's much more behind it, such as the manufacturer-specific Windows drivers.

 

 

I don't use M.2 because I consider the SSD, with 5v linear power supply and audio grade SATA cable deliver better sound. I tried the internal and external storage. Since Windows is loaded into the RAM from a .vhd file, I can easily swap it through GRUB4DOS.

 

I'm far from saying that I know how to teach someone how to set up a computer. Adjustments are personal and depend on a number of factors. But in my case, I've achieved something very interesting over almost 10 years experimenting. The fact that Linux has few possible tweaks can help, but it is also a limiter when trying to get the most out of a computer. So, or the user is committed to an "easy ride" solution (Euphony is the best alternative I've experienced with this bias), or an effectively audiophile solution. In this case, personally, I prefer Windows, which to me sounds at the top level.

 

To see how there's a difference: I tried several frequencies of the Core i3-8100T processor. Between 3.10GHz and 2.40GHz there's no sonic difference using Windows. But, with Euphony, using 3.10GHz plays better, as Nenon suggested. Therefore each case is very particular. It's not easy to get the most out, so, I like to have a lot of adjustment variables. I don't spend days or waste time testing more than listening. Adjustments have been occurring gradually over many years and many more hours of listening. That's why I won't waste time on a Linux anymore.

I see, the Euphony is best optimized using SSD SATA (with external LPS) or as some people prefer Optane M2 drive connected directly; without external LPS, so to have fair comparison you need to load Euphony onto your SATA (which you should NOT do as it would erase your Win!) So basically u need another identical SATA SSD drive that is same as one you use for Win and then run Euphony on it. This I think may make a big difference as compared with Euohony on USB stick or running on other external drive. Running RAMroot still matter  s regards to the SSD as there is still retrieval of file/programs etc from the OS in the SSD even if the music is not even in the SSD. 

I am also not sure if running RAMroot is best for Euphony as it depends on your HW, e.g for me, right now RAMroot is not as good as running regular but then that is because probably I have large music files and not even RAM memory. Or maybe I need separate LPS to RAM ??.. 

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In my setup I bought a server from Power Holdings that was equipped with a 4TB Internal SSD (Samsung) that Euphony installed to and also stored my music library. As you mentioned, one device with no need to talk to any other devices other than the DAC.

This device sounds better than my finely tuned windows machine running Win 10 Pro. The same machine running the Euphony OS on a thumb drive sounded better still. The new dedicated server sounds best of all.

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On 10/30/2019 at 1:47 AM, aangen said:

In my setup I bought a server from Power Holdings that was equipped with a 4TB Internal SSD (Samsung) that Euphony installed to and also stored my music library. As you mentioned, one device with no need to talk to any other devices other than the DAC.

This device sounds better than my finely tuned windows machine running Win 10 Pro. The same machine running the Euphony OS on a thumb drive sounded better still. The new dedicated server sounds best of all.

Hi, thanks for the comments - are you doing any upsamping with Euphony?

 

I need find time to install the trial and test without having to travel for work during the trial, but want to try mainly for sampling to DSD...

I remember some comments that Euphony's own upsampling to DSD was very good, on par with some HQPlayer filters.

For this test, I will use my Win10 box using a 25W i5 (10A/19V with HDPlex DC-DC + 10A/12V to CPU), but easy enough for me to upgrade to one of the known power configurations if moderate success with the preliminary setup which is ready to go.

 

(note Win10 is absolutely no comparison to WinServer...I have 2 PC's with Win10 Pro and 2 with server versions, and the server OS is a completely different environment to my experience)

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10 hours ago, motberg said:

Hi, thanks for the comments - are you doing any upsamping with Euphony?

 

I need find time to install the trial and test without having to travel for work during the trial, but want to try mainly for sampling to DSD...

I remember some comments that Euphony's own upsampling to DSD was very good, on par with some HQPlayer filters.

For this test, I will use my Win10 box using a 25W i5 (10A/19V with HDPlex DC-DC + 10A/12V to CPU), but easy enough for me to upgrade to one of the known power configurations if moderate success with the preliminary setup which is ready to go.

 

(note Win10 is absolutely no comparison to WinServer...I have 2 PC's with Win10 Pro and 2 with server versions, and the server OS is a completely different environment to my experience)

Hey the euphony uses embedded HQplayer to upsample or switch from PCM—>DSD. I don’t think the stylus itself can upsample dsd, or do conversion to DSD unless I am just not aware that it now can (with the V3). The audiogd R7 plays native dsd really nicely now with euphony that i don’t feel the HQplayer has any benefits. The dirty noise of DSD256 is gone. i can also play native DSD512 from euphony though it eats up lots of RAM so 100% buffer cannot be done. Per euphony programmer guy there is a bug he needs to fix for DSD. BTW, your USB bridge is amanero or F-1 ? It needs new fw to play DSD512, and the F1 needs a faster clock 40..hz i think.
 

oh make sure u have a latest V2 board and at least TDA fw for the DSD as this works much better now with R7

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On 11/1/2019 at 12:46 PM, Chopin75 said:

Hey the euphony uses embedded HQplayer to upsample or switch from PCM—>DSD. I don’t think the stylus itself can upsample dsd, or do conversion to DSD unless I am just not aware that it now can (with the V3). The audiogd R7 plays native dsd really nicely now with euphony that i don’t feel the HQplayer has any benefits. The dirty noise of DSD256 is gone. i can also play native DSD512 from euphony though it eats up lots of RAM so 100% buffer cannot be done. Per euphony programmer guy there is a bug he needs to fix for DSD. BTW, your USB bridge is amanero or F-1 ? It needs new fw to play DSD512, and the F1 needs a faster clock 40..hz i think.
 

oh make sure u have a latest V2 board and at least TDA fw for the DSD as this works much better now with R7

Thanks for the additional comments...

 

The system where I like to try Euphony will be a single PC to Gustard U16 i2s -> Gustard A20H (AK4497 x 2)

I have a native DSD512 classical sampler, and from the brief listening I have done so far think this DSD idea may be something to try for classical. I have also tried the older version of HQPlayer upsampling PCM to DSD256 which sounds promising. I would need to do upsampling for most my files, probably to DSD 256. The Gustard setup is currently seriously popping with DSD though Windows,  so I am hoping Euphony maybe can help with that... the AK4497 generally has some nice attributes as implemented in the Gustard DAC, so I really hope I can fix the DSD popping one way or another. I did give Euphony a very brief try a while back and liked the interface and easy installation, but not evaluated the sound. I heard a r2r DAC with Volumio in my system and that offered a nice sound, different, but complementing, my normal Windows Server setup* with JPlay. I should be able to have a chance for my serious Euphony test later this week - so will report back how it goes and if it offers any help with the DSD popping.

 

Big thanks to everyone who posts here. It seems the Euphony developers are considering these comments and testing/implementing various ideas.. It is pretty expensive, but for someone who does not relish the opportunity to become a Linux expert, such a relatively mature product could be considered money well spent (I follow every AL thread here also... have no idea half the time what they are talking about... jejejeje)... All these Euphony posts and comments are greatly appreciated as they can seriously help potential users get the most out of the evaluation period.    

 

Quick question, my full library is on an external 4TB USB WD Red HDD drive (LPS, Intona, Matrix H USB card, good USB cables). Almost the entire 4TB is full... would it be better to use another drive for the test, maybe a small internal SSD? I am worried that indexing the entire 4TB may be difficult. Or maybe I can point the Euphony indexing to only a single particular folder?

 

*I have another setup for PCM, with 2 PC WINServer to an Audio-GD 8xPCM1704UK NOS DAC that is just perfect for prog and classic rock .. no need to touch that setup currently.. that (NOS7) DAC is very special and I am feeding it with a M10 clock / U16 via i2s also.. It sounds great with upsampled PCM as well as all native rates. Due to problems I have had with JPlay, I want to try changing this setup to HQPlayer, (server and endpoint)... but if Euphony works well on the Gustard (hopefully DSD) system, then will give it a try on the Audio-GD PCM system also. If I cannot fix the popping of the Gustard stuff, then will change the DSD side back to Audio-GD r2r with Euphony.

 

 

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2 hours ago, motberg said:

Thanks for the additional comments...

 

The system where I like to try Euphony will be a single PC to Gustard U16 i2s -> Gustard A20H (AK4497 x 2)

I have a native DSD512 classical sampler, and from the brief listening I have done so far think this DSD idea may be something to try for classical. I have also tried the older version of HQPlayer upsampling PCM to DSD256 which sounds promising. I would need to do upsampling for most my files, probably to DSD 256. The Gustard setup is currently seriously popping with DSD though Windows,  so I am hoping Euphony maybe can help with that... the AK4497 generally has some nice attributes as implemented in the Gustard DAC, so I really hope I can fix the DSD popping one way or another. I did give Euphony a very brief try a while back and liked the interface and easy installation, but not evaluated the sound. I heard a r2r DAC with Volumio in my system and that offered a nice sound, different, but complementing, my normal Windows Server setup* with JPlay. I should be able to have a chance for my serious Euphony test later this week - so will report back how it goes and if it offers any help with the DSD popping.

 

Big thanks to everyone who posts here. It seems the Euphony developers are considering these comments and testing/implementing various ideas.. It is pretty expensive, but for someone who does not relish the opportunity to become a Linux expert, such a relatively mature product could be considered money well spent (I follow every AL thread here also... have no idea half the time what they are talking about... jejejeje)... All these Euphony posts and comments are greatly appreciated as they can seriously help potential users get the most out of the evaluation period.    

 

Quick question, my full library is on an external 4TB USB WD Red HDD drive (LPS, Intona, Matrix H USB card, good USB cables). Almost the entire 4TB is full... would it be better to use another drive for the test, maybe a small internal SSD? I am worried that indexing the entire 4TB may be difficult. Or maybe I can point the Euphony indexing to only a single particular folder?

 

*I have another setup for PCM, with 2 PC WINServer to an Audio-GD 8xPCM1704UK NOS DAC that is just perfect for prog and classic rock .. no need to touch that setup currently.. that (NOS7) DAC is very special and I am feeding it with a M10 clock / U16 via i2s also.. It sounds great with upsampled PCM as well as all native rates. Due to problems I have had with JPlay, I want to try changing this setup to HQPlayer, (server and endpoint)... but if Euphony works well on the Gustard (hopefully DSD) system, then will give it a try on the Audio-GD PCM system also. If I cannot fix the popping of the Gustard stuff, then will change the DSD side back to Audio-GD r2r with Euphony.

 

I would not recommend using the 4TB, apart from being too large but that by burning then Euphony image you would erase all the music. Even if you can partition it to just burn the image on there and keep the rest of the music stored it is too risky. Besides, it seems like using a formatted or completely free drive seems to work better. I even have difficulty upgrading my euphony V2 to V3 and would need to erase entire drive (I have not done that yet) to make it work properly.   You can use the USB thumb drive to do a test trial or better still since you are doing heavy duty upsampling, use an internal  SATA SSD drive,  probably 64 GB would be adequate, with this size you can load music from your 4TB  you need to play on Ecache, and also has room to store some music on the SSD.  I burned my trial image with the SSD attached as an external drive on my Mac, easy to do. 

For the PC you need lots of RAM if you were to do DSD upsampling. I have 8 GB and it is adequate but I can't run RAMroot properly, as it sounds worse since with RAMroot playing HiRES I would have > 30% RAM used and that seems to be too much. 

So I imagine you need to stay away from RAMroot with upsampling to DSD512 ! Running DSD512 from my own classical sampler can work fine but only on non-RAMroot mode as it causes freezing with RAMroot (no RAM!) I imagine at least 16 GB for native DSD512 and probably 32 GB for upsampling to DSD...

 

I strongly advise you to test R7 with upgraded V2 board (if you have) and using their latest FW, it cures the pops and DSD noise, and even with my older FW now, the DSD sounds quite amazing, better than PCM for sure. But I was testing using native DSD files and Stylus/ Euphony. I am not impressed with Embedded HQplayer on Euphony. Maybe you are more expert in adjusting the filters. (I can't be bothered figuring that out!) 

 

The popping is less with native DSD on euphony compared with DoP but with HQplayer I seem to get pops all the time. 

 

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44 minutes ago, davide256 said:

At CAF now. Lots of rooms using Qobuz which is nice but the laptops / MacBooks/Wolf servers used disappoint after having becoming used to Euphony SQ. The rooms using Innuos are a relief. 

 

39 minutes ago, davide256 said:

A shout out to @austinpop. Thank you for your post about using “full throttle” NUC CPU settings if your power supply is good enough. Doing that was counter intuitive to my past experience, but with the JS2 it worked, improved transparency of Euphony playback

Maybe start a thread on CAF give us an outline of what you heard and what you liked/disliked!!  Hope you enjoy the show!

 

 

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For a while I find running RAMroot on euphony & stylus actually makes the SQ worse. So now I have upgraded my RAM to ECC Apacer  still at 16 GBm and now with RAMroot the SQ has improved quite a bit mainly with better sound stage and more clarity. Has anyone found out too that a better RAM makes the Ramroot better ? I was using G.Skill before.  

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5 hours ago, lwr said:

 

I too was surprised how much the switch to Apacer RAM further reduced the noise floor, and further improved clarity and soundstage.  Highly recommended     

 

5 hours ago, lwr said:

 

I too was surprised how much the switch to Apacer RAM further reduced the noise floor, and further improved clarity and soundstage.  Highly recommended     

The NUC does not support ECC RAM however reducing from 16GB to 8GB (removed 1 8GB-stick) resulted in more smooth presentation. I'm using Kingston HyperX CL14 RAM, RAMROOT-enabled.

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1 hour ago, Lukasluis said:

 

The NUC does not support ECC RAM however reducing from 16GB to 8GB (removed 1 8GB-stick) resulted in more smooth presentation. I'm using Kingston HyperX CL14 RAM, RAMROOT-enabled.

I use the AMD/Ryzen CPU and MB which supports the ECC.  I am actually going the opposite direction to need more RAM. I have found that large files suffer from SQ due to not having enough RAM. Though using Apacer seems to have resolved this issue. nonetheless 156 GB is not adequate to play DSD512 and in general I have huge files due to listening to classical music with tracks lasting up to 30 min! So DSD256 and DXD takes up lots of ram such that I am having issues when running in Ramroot + 100% buffer on Euphony OS/stylus. I am likely to do 32 GB RAM in future, which if I use Apacer ECC, I don't think will make SQ worse. 

Supposedly using all 4 rails of the RAM would be better than occupying 2 rails with same total RAM. 

So. I will do 4x 8 GB (already using 2x 8 GB) = 32 GB

2x 16 GB would be cheaper but may not work as well, though it allows 4x 16 GB in future!! Such large RAM might indeed affect SQ as it may perhaps strain the LPS, not sure..

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20 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

I use the AMD/Ryzen CPU and MB which supports the ECC.  I am actually going the opposite direction to need more RAM. I have found that large files suffer from SQ due to not having enough RAM. Though using Apacer seems to have resolved this issue. nonetheless 156 GB is not adequate to play DSD512 and in general I have huge files due to listening to classical music with tracks lasting up to 30 min! So DSD256 and DXD takes up lots of ram such that I am having issues when running in Ramroot + 100% buffer on Euphony OS/stylus. I am likely to do 32 GB RAM in future, which if I use Apacer ECC, I don't think will make SQ worse. 

Supposedly using all 4 rails of the RAM would be better than occupying 2 rails with same total RAM. 

So. I will do 4x 8 GB (already using 2x 8 GB) = 32 GB

2x 16 GB would be cheaper but may not work as well, though it allows 4x 16 GB in future!! Such large RAM might indeed affect SQ as it may perhaps strain the LPS, not sure..

And inject more noise. I'm using a more than adequate PSU.

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12 hours ago, bobfa said:

I would like to suggest that we do not speculate but listen and report please.

I am not sure if using ECC RAM would inject more noise as one increases the numbers of RAM. It may be very efficient and noise free. Once I get hold of 2 additional RAM and test them I can report (but they are not cheap!!)  My desire to expand RAM size is mainly due to me running out of RAM when playing DSD512. For now the APacer ECC RAM running RAMROOT is very nice indeed. Will see if I swab back using the old G skill RAM tor run Ramroot again the SQ is work again or not.

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I am going to download the trial version of Euphony to my MacBook, which I use to stream Tidal.  I have an EtherRegen on order for January delivery.  

 

Once the ER arrives my setup will be:

 

MacBook Pro (Euphony + Roon) > wireless > Apple Airport Extreme > ethernet cable > EtherRegen > ethernet cable  > Sonore UltraRendu.

 

I am curious if any member here that owns the ER and is using Euphony (installed on a device that is upstream of the ER), would mind experimenting to see if Euphony still improves sound quality, and if so, is it to the same degree as before inserting their EtherRegen?

 

 

 

 


Home: EtherRegen | UltraRendu + LPS 1.2 | Berkeley Alpha USB | Denafrips Terminator | Jeff Rowland Coherence II Series 2 | Blue Circle Audio BC-202 | Raidho XT-1 | 2 x Revel Performa3 B112 subwoofers  

 

Desktop: Iso Regen + LPS 1 | Eitr | Chord Qutest  | Aesthetix Calypso pre | Blue Circle Audio BC-28 amp | Scansonic MK-5 monitors | Elac S10 sub

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5 hours ago, Lukasluis said:

There is a software update for Roon. Do I need to disable Ramroot first before installing the update?

 

Disable ramroot, reboot, and then install the Roon update.  You'll need to re-enable ramroot and reboot after the Roon update is complete.


 

 

 

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