Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[di-fi]

When changing to a track with a different bit depth the next track plays with heavy distortion

 

I am hoping that someone in this great and resourceful community (many thanks for sharing!) could give me a clue how/where to troubleshoot. With my setup (details in my profile)  I did not have any problem until end last year.  Then suddenly my (1 box) Euphony Stylus (ram root and buffer) started randomly playing distorted tracks when changing from 16 bit to 24 (and 24 to 16) from a play list or 'radio' function. Basically in my day to day listening (all my music is on a NAS) I can only play 1 album (same bit-depth either 16 or 24) or make playlists with one bit depth. When it happens I can hear the song play, but it is extremely distorted, a lot of high, no bass. Sometimes the song will play distorted and at a faster pace. 

Without blaming Euphony, this distortion began december last year after Euphony/ Željko was troubleshooting so I could have all tracks of 1 album (instead of only 2) loaded in memory. (That has been fixed since for everyone).  Another change I made in that time was the installation of the new UNISON USB card in my Yggdrasil dac.

In December Željko did some testing for the distortion. I could provoke the distortion while changing tracks, he listened to a distorted song, could not see a bug in Euphony code and concluded this must be some kind of unfortunate incompatibility between OS and my dac. He stated that only if more users have this problem (which I honestly do not wish to anyone ;-) there might be a solution.

 

I did not find any indication Unison is not explicitly supported by Linux and relies on generic USB drivers. I tried changing dac delay in Stylus settings, changing sample rates or not at all. I am  hesitant to uninstall the unison card but it could confirm where (not) to find the error. I could separate/eliminate all 24 bit files (my DAC plays 16bit wonderfully :-)) , but I do not consider that a real solution. 

Does anyone have an idea? Thanks in advance,
Paul



Sound file below (you can hear me change tracks). You do not need to listen for long, it sounds pretty awful:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aMrj1bH0Naeh5AHoFlj1_nYGuyuOCD4u?usp=sharing

 

Please note I can flawlessly play up to 196kHz - PCM. But no DSD due to Yggdrasill dac. 

[di-fi]

Hi davide256,

 

Yes , I have the same issue on both native USB ports. Right now am testing the Realtek USB (PEXUSB311AC3). It does not resolve the bit depth problem, but soundwise it's an improvement.

 

I can confirm that the clicks unfortunately are part of the Schiit dac design. So I always hear them, and got used to ignoring them. 

_From Schiit website: It’s totally normal for Bifrost, Gungnir, and Yggdrasil DACs to click (mechanically, from the chassis) during normal operation. That’s the muting relay, doing its job. It clicks whenever the SPDIF datastream is interrupted._

 

To get to what's causing this Euphony distortion when changing 16 bit to 24 bit songs,  I have to pin down on what causes this and at AudiophileStyle I am looking for help with that. Johnseye recently mentioned in this thread a problem ''Stylus either not playing song after song consecutively in the queue or just have a general difficulty playing songs at all?'' and it got solved and it was no hardware issue. It made me realize that maybe there is something in common with my problem?

 

There are so many factors at play that I feel a bit lost. But I can not keep listening to Euphony with random distortion. When listening to music random I have to sometimes run to find a phone or tablet to restart the app (and track will continue to play as usual), or my family members have to run for the volume control. Specially at higher volume this noise is quite awful/unbearable.

 

It seems a test with the old Schiit usb card will give me an answer, but it takes me 1-2 hours to open and close with a multitude of screws so I do not like opening the Yggy myself (but I can) I could also change player software, but I have to install a new one and compromise on Euphony quality. On the USB chain I compared with different cables and/or lengths and with or without IsoRegen.

 

I am open to any solution. It would be great to understand what is going on.

 

Thanks!

Paul

 

 

[di-fi]

Hi SSJ,

If you had the same issue of ''a loud constant hiss distortion'' with a combination of Yggy AND Euphony Stylus and changing for a different software solved the problem I am more tempted to try to run for example Daphile or Volumino from a USB stick and see if playing will improve. (instead of swapping the Unison USB).  I do ONLY play local files, no streaming.

 

Euphony/ Željko spent quite some time troubleshooting before giving up. I played and changed tracks and could provoke distortion, while he was checking what was going on. I think at that time we did not figure out it had to do with 16 bit vs. 24 bit. Today that's what it seems although I can not always force it to happen.

 

Thank you for sharing.

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

[di-fi]

I never had issues until I found out last year Euphony was not adding all album tracks (only 2 at a time) to my buffer instead of as it was supposed to do (100% buffer, all album tracks). At that time I preferred to play from ramroot (2 Apacer sticks) and to have all tracks in buffer and pull the ethernet out. Euphony resolved this issue and now I could load a full  album or playlist to memory and improve sound. But shortly after this distortion problem started.

 

An odd behavior today when I choose tracks to play from an album sometimes the first track is unresponsive when I tap it (iPhone & iPad pro), if I press the second track the next tracks will follow and load to buffer. If I then press 1st track again it became responsive and will play. 

 

Current Euphony Stylus behavior gives me the impression that in my situation using Ramroot and music loaded to buffer doesn't like to be 'disconnected'. In layman's terms: It is as if the information needed between following tracks to play them right is not properly communicated or not fully understood, specifically for the bit depth part. So Yggy does not receive proper instructions to change bit depth with the next track playing. Makes me think when many of us suffered the gapless phenomenon, changing the tracks caused information problems. That mostly has been settled now.

 

Since the distortion seems to happen only in my setup it makes me wonder if it could be an ethernet or memory issue instead of Euphony or Yggy. 

 

 

[di-fi]

SJJ,

You mentioned SPDIF and AES. For 3-4 months I played SPDIF - Yggy with a SingXer (LPS 1.2) with and wo IsoRegen and it was great, no Issues. I changed back to UNISON USB and LUSH2 usb cable with and wo IsoRegen and that seemed at least equal in quality. It was only then that the distortion occurred. 

The SingXer has been sold, so I can not verify if it is an USB vs. SPDIF issue. Your setup must sound great, I was always curious how Yggy/AES would sound.  I would like to try Engineered eRED dock, but ideally with Euphony. 

[di-fi]

Hi Davide256,

 

I put up my audio profile recently, sorry if it was not clear. I have no splitter cable. Thank you for mentioning the crosstalk, I'll keep in mind. 

 

My SuperMicro X10SBA MOBO has 2 separate 12v power feeds:

• Uptone LPS 1.2 (w. custom DC cable) through PICO psu 12V ATX dc-dc feeding the MOBO
• FaradSuper3 (w. custom DC and AC cable) through 4pin PSU connector. 
• SSD separately powered through Uptone LPS 1

 

The Realtek USB (PEXUSB311AC3) card was a recent addition for testing. I installed in PCIe slot and later added 12v through SATA connector on the Realteck card (w. Uptone LPS 1.2). Second option did not change much (I think it is also powered through PCIe slot?), although it is a general improvement (3% like) I decided to return the card (and save for JCAT USB although that doesn't make sense $ wise in my setup, but who didn't say that before?

[di-fi]

To NANOSWORD,

Are you talking about this option. It's included for maybe 3 months. What version of Euphony are you using? (Below Euphony v. 20210108)

 

 

[di-fi]

To NANOSWORD,

14 minutes ago, NanoSword said:

 

 

I am enabling cache in my server I use my internal optane drive.

 

But I am trying to explain that we need enhance the method of disabling network with euphony .

I think for better sq we need to disable network first .

second buffering the queue .

this should apply in sequence .

 

Yes indeed, that would be great to not have network interference included with the soundfiles.

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

most troubleshooting is a process of elimination. What I'm wondering is if the LPS 1.2 is too low in current for error free operation powering MOBO and its devices.

Are you able to do a split cable from the Superfarad3 to  both 12V inputs?  The manufacturers site says the CPU consumes 10W but I can't find specs for the MOBO.

However the Superfarad3 should have far more wattage available than the LPS 1.2, even after subtracting the CPU demand. If the problems stays, that would rule

out a PS transient current draw issue.

I have been running the SuperMicro MOBO flawlessly from December 2019 on one Uptone LPS 1.2. It ran a bit warm so I added two 90x90x15mm Aluminium Heatsinks on each side. Last November when I added the FaradSuper 3 in combination with LPS 1.2 I tried all (4) possible PSU combinations and settled for having both connected as described above.  Having the SuperFarad3 on the CPU was a more important gain in sound, instead of having it on the MOBO. Since the LPS 1.2 had run the whole MOBO by itself for almost a year, I put it back on the ATX dc-dc. This combination gave the best results. 

 

My set-up is based on low power, no up sampling. CPU isolation at _0 gstp 1-3_. 1 CPU core will max out at 9-10% , others close to 0%. Playing HIRES files drive up 1 core a little more say 10-17% max and other 3 cores move up a little more 5% max.  Core temps 40-44°C. Only when Euphony is buffering an album 1 core will peak at 100% for maybe 10 secs before going down to 10%.

I assume when changing buffered tracks, also from 16 to 24 bit depth and 24 to 16 bit depth it will ask temporarily more CPU, probably I can monitor that with Euphony TEMP/CPU. I did never take measurements, so I can not confirm.

 

As you proposed I will try run everything only on the FaradSuper3 and see what happens (specifically with the bit depth distortion). Farad definitely has more power (12V / 42W) than a LPS 1.2.

 

Adding the SuperFarad3 to the MOBO was a big improvement immediately noticeable through the whole sound spectrum. Next was changing DC cable and a better AC cord also made an important improvement. Based on reviews an other recommended upgrade would be to change the fuse for a SR Orange, I am sure it's worth it.

[di-fi]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

network activity during playback can negatively impact SQ.  disabling the network during playback stops that activity.

this can be tested by disconnecting a network cable or disabling the nic.

Somewhere above davide256 summed it up very clear to me, what happened to the song before you hear it. (italics are my comments)

 

quote:

 

'a) caches the queue (to your SSD or Nvme or Optane wherever Euphony resides)

b) takes network connection down

c) buffers queue from cache (to RAM buffer from the cache)

d) plays entire queue after buffer completes

e) brings network connection up after play completes or upon any error

 

end quote

 

So I would think in a) there would be network pollution added to the cached file, with network connection still on. Why would it 'filter out" before the buffer state in c)? Please help me understand.

[di-fi]

40 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

It isn't about the data.  It's not the song cached in RAM.  It's the noise generated by the NIC during playback.  Unless you can validate the NIC is not utilized at all, which is what bringing it down does.  If the NIC is utilized for anything during listening it can generate noise.

 

Great, I got you, I think. I will try to recap.

 

The data in the cache and the data in the buffer are identical. They both include the same good or bad stuff added. Right?

So then playing from either cache or buffer depends the quality of your memory, for example SSD compared to Apacer RAM?

Leaving the Network on will have the same negative effect on each, whether playing from cache or buffer.

 

I really appreciate your explanation Johnseye and NanoSword!

Thanks, 

Paul

 

[di-fi]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

The data is the data.  Nothing gets added, although some people will tell you ripping on a quiet PC sounds better than on a noisy one. YMMV.

 

There are a lot of variables that can impact SQ.  Noise is one.  Jitter is another.  Latency is another.  Reducing all of those to as little as possible has been a goal of digital music reproduction.

 

I don't know how the quality of RAM impacts SQ but probably by one of the things I mentioned.  I don't know enough about it personally.

 

If the network is on it can create unwanted noise.

Nenon, I was referring to your example that NanoSword quoted (below). In that context I was talking about good or bad things added, I should have said what good or bad the network does. I am as fascinated by this as you are. I am just trying to breakdown in laymen's terms what exactly is happening in my Euphony Stylus in the cache and in the buffer and why and when - as in NanoSwords example - there is a difference. I do not expect that all things (can) to be explained, but I know that you can hear them. Thanks again for your patience.

 

quote: I have been comparing two identical Buffalo switches in the past couple of days - one with the stock clock and one with upgraded clock (PinkFaun ultraOCXO). You can do that same test in my system, and although you disconnect the cable while playing, the buffered tracks using the switch with the upgraded clock sound much better. In other words, even if you disconnect the network cable, whatever good or bad things your network does is already embedded in the buffered track somehow. 

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

I have the same exact issue. Was not able to replicate it with Zejko though. I also did not have the issue using GentooPlayer or other audio OSes. Apparently the Yggy with Unison does not jive well with Euphony. For me, the issue has become more and more rare. I stream from Tidal. The issue has also rarely occurred when switching from Local to streamed tracks or vice versa. Typically, I keep my remote nearby and bounce the Stylus service.. the song will typically pickup from where it left off. It doesn't happen with HQ player.

 

Cheers

Interesting Exocer. This confirms I should try another player(s). I don't like to compromise on sound quality without Euphony but at the same time with Euphony Stylus alone I really miss out on my music collection. I do not use Roon and I did not find a way to 'deep' browse my music. So maybe there is a good side to a change. (My system is low power so I can not use HQ player)

[di-fi]

3 hours ago, Exocer said:

Onboard USB ports, USB PCI-E card etc don't make a difference either (which was shocking). I really like Euphony. The SQ has had better synergy than other OSes i've tried with this system so I simply put up with it :). Also, I am connecting directly to the DAC and have tried 3 USB cables: Schiit Pyst, Lush^2 and Sablon 2020.

 

Cheers

Excocer, when you say the Startech USP PCIe card does not make a difference, do you mean not enough difference but nevertheless you got some advantage as described in your audio profile? You still seem to use the Startech? Did you try to power the Startech through the onboard connector? I vaguely remember reading someone isolating (putting tape) over some connectors in the PCIe slot to cut off the MOBO current and only supply power through the USB card onboard connector. With decent cables and lps, this could work?

Did you try other USB cards? Why not a JCAT Femto USB (other than $). I am very interested in improving the ‘USB out’ until I can eliminate the ISO regen and also use one cable between streamer and DAC (considering my setup ideally for maximum half the price of a JCAT).

 

I am using a tiny Curious USB and a short Lush^2. If I can not improve onboard USB I can always install 16Gb Optane on a PCIe adapter....

 

Thanks for sharing.

[di-fi]

36 minutes ago, Exocer said:

As for the Starech not making a difference, I meant the issue we are experiencing will also occur with the Startech card in use. So, the issue seems to be with the Yggy/Euphony compatibility.

yes that was my experience also, distortion in both cases. Well, now there are 3 Euphony users who experience(d) this distortion problem. But your situation seems more random. Zjelko did not confirm how many more he needs to reinvestigate. I hope to find a solution soon.

Quote

 

I have no ISO Regen or Phoenix and the system sounds remarkable to me directly to the DAC. Who knows, perhaps an ISO regen, Phoenix, or JCAT have the potential to improve the system further.

 

Ok my short off topic reply: Considering the quality of your setup and both the USB you are currently using, based on my experience, it is more than likely the ISOregen will improve as also will the JCAT. The % of improvement depending on the Sablon USB of course. At first sight it doesn’t look like it but JCAT being less expensive if you compare with ISOregen + lps 1.2 + decent dc cable + second USB cable. I would choose JCAT ;-). Oops forgot Lps for JCAT (needs more power than for example lps 1.2 can deliver I think) if you want to have it all...it never ends.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Paul

[di-fi]

43 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Yeah that didn't work... Nor did the highest delay setting...

Well thanks for trying! For a year I had 0 ms DAC delay as only setting. Since this distortion happened instantly at the change of tracks I have been wondering what information exchange is happening between Euphony and the DAC and how much time needed when it will change to the next track. So I thought I should change this. I just looked it up, I am currently also at 1000ms! I tried lower settings but I did not notice any change. If I could only ‘force’ Euphony or Yggdrasil to either play 16 bit or 24 bit, my problem may be solved because it does not seem to read that it should adapt the bit depth for the following track. For example in WIN 10 & JRiver I can play all tracks at a fixed bit depth to (Topping d10s) office dac.

[di-fi]

6 hours ago, Exocer said:

Yeah. I'd like to force bit depth as well although it would be nice to leave everything to play at original settings. Also, the music I do hear when I experience the issue is a bit faster than it should be. Do you hear this as well?

Exactly. Music is playing faster, but not every time. Music becomes instantly strident. I hear heavy distortion in the highs, but you van still hear the track play. Also a few months ago I could press pause, and then ‘play’ and the track played normal. That doesn’t work anymore Euphony becomes totally unresponsive. I have to ‘restart app’ and occasionally do a full reboot to make Euphony responsive. 
If manipulation of bit depth is possible I do not know how it affects the music though. It is a theoretical solution.

[di-fi]

16 minutes ago, di-fi said:

Exactly. Music is playing faster, but not every time. Music becomes instantly strident. I hear heavy distortion in the highs, but you van still hear the track play. Also a few months ago I could press pause, and then ‘play’ and the track played normal. That doesn’t work anymore Euphony becomes totally unresponsive. I have to ‘restart app’ and occasionally do a full reboot to make Euphony responsive. 
If manipulation of bit depth is possible I do not know how it affects the music though. It is a theoretical solution.

Good news. Last night I got a message from Željko: “I may have an idea how to solve your problem but it would require losing gapless playback. Are you interested in trying it?”.
I reported him back that I found two Euphony users on this forum who had experienced the same problem. Of course I will try this. I just toggled my RC. Exocer I will keep you posted in the following days (unfortunately I am not much home to try).

[di-fi]

9 hours ago, di-fi said:

Good news. Last night I got a message from Željko: “I may have an idea how to solve your problem but it would require losing gapless playback. Are you interested in trying it?”.
I reported him back that I found two more Euphony users on this forum who had experienced the same problem. Of course I will try this. But I can not compromise on gapless, only for now. 

 

[di-fi]

12 minutes ago, di-fi said:

 

So now we have two Schiit Yggdrasil users and one Schiit Gungnir (now sold) user who experienced major distortion problems (although random) related to 'wrong' bit depth after change of tracks while using the recent Unison USB card. According to Schiit the Unison card will only work with WIN 10, no earlier version. I do not know how Linux interacts with hardware & drivers, but I wonder if there could be a Schiit Unison driver problem (update for Linux?)  or incompatibility with the Euphony software.

 

I will test the correction Željko applied today and I should re-install the older Schiit USB card for comparison (without today's correction!) and I think I will have enough information to get in touch with Schiit @Jason Stoddard and @Baldr.

 

--to the OP; I think I am still on topic since Euphony is helping troubleshooting (thanks Željko, you are always there!) although it starts pointing more to the Schiit hardware or software compatibility-- 

[di-fi]

30 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Zejko applied the fix for me earlier but I was again able to replicate the issue immediately. He will likely follow up with me in the next few days as I have shown him how to replicate the issue. Cheers

If you can help me understand: the fix eliminates gapless and Željko said that now buffer will be only one track at a time. So no more complete albums or playlist will be send to buffer, is that right?

[di-fi]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:15 PM, di-fi said:

Deleted

 

[di-fi]

Delete, sorry having problems quoting the right message :-(

[di-fi]

 

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[di-fi]

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