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Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread


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On 3/16/2019 at 3:24 AM, tims said:

Thanks for the review.  Do you know if its possible to run Audirvana with the Euphony OS rather than the Stylus player?

 

NO, the Euphony )Sappears to be a closed system that only allows its own software player or HQplayer embedded or Sqeezebox & Roon. HQplayer embedded would require you to subscribe/pay the HQplayer separately  I don't think Audirvanna even has linux support. 

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5 hours ago, Poldi said:

Maybe a dumb question, but how do I turn on legacy boot on a NUC7PJYH? I can't find any corresponding entry in its BIOS. (also using search for "legacy")

And the option to turn on/off UEFI boot is greyed out.

 

@bobfa I think you got a NUC7i7DN board, right? Is it possible that my NUC has lesser options in its BIOS than yours?

 

At Euphony Audio they told me that an internal SSD works with UEFI but it didn't work either using the trial image. Or is the trial image just for USB flash storages and the SSD image is different?

I use the same image for SSD as for USB but I have already paid for Euphony OS when I tried the Euphony OS in SSD. Arthur would need to re-register if you switch hardware. I think the trial should work with SSD boot too. I recently have tried euphpny V3 trial on USB stick but it won't boot into my Macbook Air, (V2 works fine). Not sure why. 

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38 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I was only using the Stylus player for a few days.  I went right to a quick A/B with Roon and stayed there.  

You mean u use Roon via Euphony OS vs Stylus player and you prefer Roon ? How do you send the music files via Roon to Euphony OS.

Did you usee 100% buffer on Euphony ? 
Where are the music files stored ? 

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On 3/20/2019 at 3:17 PM, RickyV said:

Wouldn’t it be possible to use AudioLinux for the server and Euphony for the endpoint? 

Or vice versa, depending if you are using Stylus or not. I presume AudioLinux would work fine instead of Euphony OS in the device when no music files playback is needed. Or you can switch them around etc. 

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On 3/20/2019 at 5:19 PM, BigAlMc said:

 

I was wondering the same.

 

@ArthurPower Great to see you join this discussion and I look forward to your input.

 

Leaving aside the cost of Euphony licences and the relative value/expense in this hobby, here's the question that's been bouncing around my restless mind.

 

For Audiolinux NUC server and endpoint combos the general consensus has seemed to be that the endpoint contributes 80-60% of the SQ improvements (largely because it's closest to the DAC) and the server contributes 20-40% of the SQ improvement.

 

So if I was to only buy one Euphony licence then it seems intuitive that it would be better for SQ to use it on the endpoint rather than the server.

 

In your opinion is my logic missing anything here?

 

Also given Euphony is essentially server software that will work as an endpoint are there any compelling arguments for ensuring the server and endpoint both run on Euphony?

 

Finally, in the Euphony universe do your users seem to agree with the 80-60 endpoint and 20-40 server contributions that I've quoted above.

 

Many Thanks,

Alan

 

PS as someone that works in software development (non audio alas) I totally get the argument that better support costs more. Just saying I'm not being critical of the costs. I'm simply trying to assess the options here.

The service of Euphony is pretty good, so you pay for what you get. They always respond well to me, across the world (from Europe, and US), so you can ask them around the clock in any tome zone!. They are constantly updating the software and answers any glitches and then improve on what the customers have issues with.  I like the fact you can carry the program/OS to new devices when you upgrade the computer. (some software companies do not have lifetime assess and so limit to how many times you can load onto a computer). It also can do "ECache" which works nicely to load any files (from external drive, ? maybe also from network) into the local drive to play. So you can basically attach your huge library of files for playback without uploading into the internal driving.

 

I cannot answer about the questions regards to server vs endpoint. I use a single box solutiion (all in one PC) From investment point of view it makes sense to pay for the software that does both music playback and endpoint. Though not thrilled with library management the stylus does over very easy to use music playback with HQplayer embedded, PCM/DSD upsampling, M-ch playback even SACD iso files ( I was told this can be done with the V3, though I have not tried).  As I single box system I can assure you that it works very nicely. 

From my experience, how noisy the computer and quality of audio bridge (USB or I2S) at the endpoint may be most important. Euphony OS simply is not causing more noisy issues like windows or MAC OS. I am not saying Hardware trump OS/software, though. 

I find the OS/software player really affect how very Hi RES is being played. The biggest improvement is with DXD (24/352) & DSD, perhaps because there is more room to improve?  Switching from MAC OS with Audirvanna to Euphony's biggest improvement is with these files. Euphony is also more efficient in that it does not occupy too much RAM, so even with 4 G RAM on 2011 CPU I am able to play DSD256 quite well, but not with MAC OS using same laptop. 

 

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9 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Because it sounds better!  On my system, to my ear a lot better.  Also to three others who know my system and have listened to both. 

 

I really want others to try!  

What PC do you use for Roon vs the one with Euphony OS? If you are using trial version with USB boot it won't be a fair comparision.

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4 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

I don't understand in matter of sq, why to use a ssd?  Internal harddrive (hdd, ssd) with internal power suppy and connected to sata is a no-go also. If you spend so much money for a nuc7i7... Spend a bit more for external hdd and seperate power supply. You will never reach the top of what is possible, if you connect it to the internal heaters.

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

I think an external LPS supplying the SSD that is running as a SATA would work just as well. Though a separate external disc can be cheaper (in terms of storage size to $) However the Euphony is best run via SATA, but not connected externally via USB. You can confirm with Arthur if this is true. 

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5 hours ago, kravi4ka said:

What type of SSD would you guys recommend for my NUC7i7DNBE to use in a single computer setup with Euphony OS? Something in the 1TB range? TIA

I use Samsung SATA 2.5" Evo 860 1 TB, You don't really need. TB to run the OS, I think min 8 GB. For running stylus with music stored in the SSD itself, which was my plan, I use 1TB, so I can store lots of files. However  it will still run out of space eventually. So end up using an external HDD  connected via USB. I use "ECache." which means the entire track or even album is loaded into "Euphony ECache drive"(I think a specific folder in Euphony OS) of the SSD. So there is really not much sonic difference, but when I was using a 4G RAM MacBook via external boot, there are signal loss with ECache with M-ch files or large files. If you don't use ECache the sound suffers. I don't know how Ecache works but when you load the music onto the playlist on Stylus, it stays there and can continue to play after I disconnect the external drive, at times multiple tracks. Strange thing is it may still play after switching off and on euphony.  Perhaps it gets erased after the Ecache becomes full ?  Maybe Arthur can explain that.  I am not sure if this Ecache also works with network files. 

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10 hours ago, Holzohr said:

 

It is possible to install the trial on hd/ssd. I did it with booting an Ubuntu USB stick and the tool/program Disks. Before you must unzip the euphony image and moving it to a second USB stick.

 

At the moment I have Euphony installed on an Optane 32GB SSD. Euphony replaced a Windows Server 2019 core installation with Fidelizer and AO. All I can say is I am not in the mood to change to Windows again.

 

Some pics:

1677654613_Screenshotfrom2019-03-2011-13-29.thumb.png.cf3dac4662c9bf9495ad2e5587d5950a.png898198157_Screenshotfrom2019-03-2011-14-54.thumb.png.f1eb37d41705d46a33f1c5a2d8e4871e.png282885546_Screenshotfrom2019-03-2011-15-24.thumb.png.16d79642c9991809bba67b529648035c.png563813516_Screenshotfrom2019-03-2011-15-55.thumb.png.2098b2761cf7be014137779fd0f26b12.png435367750_Screenshotfrom2019-03-2011-18-30.thumb.png.6b71b5965b252cc3be55fb66ad2f5880.png

Is this Optane Drive really that good? 

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11 hours ago, bobfa said:

I agree to hold on testing split run normal systems until they fix that.  I am heads down on some work before some travel and I cannot get the testing I want to do into my workflow.  I am also waiting for the update so I can A/B test single box NUC better.  As @lmitche says AL is a tweak away????  

 

I did not give the single box solution enough of a test.  It can be done with a USB boot of the trial, i think.  I have to move power supply and external drive to the main system.  MAN this is FUN!  REALLY!  I should get another NUC!

 

The questions I am asking myself is a single box NUC Euphony system as good or better than a dual box Euphony Roon system?  How does single box Roon sound?  I also really need to give the Stylus software a better chance.

 

Now back to editing spreadsheets...

It won’t be fair comparison by using USB boot instead of internal SSD drive as it is designed for.  I can’t answer your question of dual box vs 1 box, as i only have single box setup and i don’t do roon/nas etc.. 

from your blog of the servers spec, it is hard to get fair testing as you have HDPlex running roon vs NUC with the stylus/euphony. I cannot find your LPS for the NUC. Assuming the HDPlex is superior (less noise, better PS), then roon has that advantage. Also did u run Ecache? That works best with an external drive where the music is. 

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1 hour ago, mriguy said:

Hi Everyone...  I am wondering how big of a difference there is in SQ between Euphony running on a NUC compared to Euphony running on a Mac Mini? I need to acquire one or the other for my dedicated Euphony system to be!

The mac is really too noisy for music playback, andu need to switch the AC to DC power. Then most importantly the latest macmini 2018 does not allow external boot so euphony won’t work at all. I don;’t think it allows internal SSD boot either. Nothing except Mac OS can boot the latest Macs.

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24 minutes ago, mriguy said:

 

Thanks very much for that very helpfull information... Yet that leaves me with wondering why my Euphony installation fails to appear within my Roon core?  My other endpoints are still working fine. 

Strange, did u see EUPHONY large print while running it or a screen that loads the linux kernel? 

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On 3/27/2019 at 7:08 PM, BigAlMc said:

Hi @bobfa & @ArthurPower,

 

Apologies if these have been answered already but just reread this entire thread and a few more questions as I consider dipping my toes into lake Euphony.

 

The trial doesn't support UEFi boot yet so if I was to download the trial version to a USB stick then I need to change the BIOS settings to my NUCi7DNBE to legacy boot and it should boot from the USB, right?

 

(I'd want to try on the endpoint first as that just makes more sense to me. The endpoint has no SSD. So USB boot is a must)

 

Does the trial version allow me to enable Roon Bridge or Squeezelite as an endpoint?

 

(My Audiolinux server would be running Roon Server. So for my test of Euphony I need it to host an endpoint that I can play to)

 

Bob I gather you needed Euphony Support to change something to get the Roon Bridge working. That doesn't appeal too much for a trial. Is SL endpoint an option or is it a battle to get Euphony working as an endpoint?

 

Finally, does the RAM caching playback thing work in the above model or would I need Euphony OS on both server and endpoint to enable this?

 

Many Thanks,

Alan

The RAM Caching, or they call Ecache is for Euphony OS running on local SSD (not sure if it works for USB stick). The file is not actually loaded into RAM but another region in the SSD. It allows very rapid retrieval of the music file like it is in the local SSD storage. That is all. The music is still then going to be loaded into the RAM when playback. It is not relevant for Roon etc, just for Stylus and external music storage. This means Ecache works like you actually have music files in the local SSD instead of the external storage drive. So it is not used in the ENDPOINT, just when you are playing music with STylus, though I think it can also pull files from  network (not sure) . Once music is loaded (when you put the music  files on the playlist of the Stylus) you can even detach the external drive. But I think if the files are too big perhaps not all the tracks or albums can be loaded on Ecache. I suspect once it is full, the remaining tracks get erased when new ones are copied. 

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2 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

The RAM Caching, or they call Ecache is for Euphony OS running on local SSD (not sure if it works for USB stick). The file is not actually loaded into RAM but another region in the SSD. It allows very rapid retrieval of the music file like it is in the local SSD storage. That is all. The music is still then going to be loaded into the RAM when playback. It is not relevant for Roon etc, just for Stylus and external music storage. This means Ecache works like you actually have music files in the local SSD instead of the external storage drive. So it is not used in the ENDPOINT, just when you are playing music with STylus, though I think it can also pull files from  network (not sure) . Once music is loaded (when you put the music  files on the playlist of the Stylus) you can even detach the external drive. But I think if the files are too big perhaps not all the tracks or albums can be loaded on Ecache. I suspect once it is full, the remaining tracks get erased when new ones are copied. 

Perhaps Arthur from euphony can comment if my description is not accurate

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 minute ago, Dev said:

If you have music files on an external USB drive connected to Euphony, has anybody been able to copy files into it from outside ?

Yes, you click on the "copy to euphony" button, If you mean you want to copy the files from the external drive to the local drive where the Euphony OS is. 

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On 4/8/2019 at 10:28 AM, Monge said:

I tried Euphony with Stylus player with Intel NUCPJYH and I like what I heard. 

To me the Sound is fuller or warm if I Can say so.

It’s Easy to setup and like.

But I had problems with Tidal, was slow and chrashing.

I Think the PJYH isn’nt enough here.

I also tried upsampling via HQPlayer embedded In Stylus. Nice integration.

Just my to cents.

But I love AL headless with all the tweaking.

Cheers

The Euphony works great with HQplayer but I hate the click & pause at the end of each track even in the same album. DO you experience that ? But I think it mainly occurs when doing PCM-DSD., 

The HQplayer has its own sound signature different from the Stylus even with PCM

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3 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

No, I mean I want to copy some music from my laptop into the external USB drive connected to Euphony which is mounted on /data.

I think you can use file manager (this feature is available only if you bought it) by opening Euphony app on your lap top. However I was only able to copy single files but not an entire folder of tracks, meaning I am not able to drag entire folder (with all the tracks in there) in. So if you want to copy an album folder it can get messy. Perhaps that has now been resolved with  V3 or maybe a way to do this I am not aware of.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dev said:

 

When you share it (using samba), the drive is available from outside using audiouser/euphony username/password but its read-only (and hence I can't copy anything to it) since the drive is internally mounted as root user.

Not sure what you mean, as I don't use Samba, but did you mount it into the library ? You might be able to mount the laptop drive into the library and then copy the files. If you want to share only or play the file directly from where it is then use ECache, 

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33 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I already have a Linux formatted USB drive that I have used for several years and now with AL as music file storage. I am using the same drive with Euphony as the music library. This is all good and works fine. When you use "Share Music Library on network" feature in Euphony -> Settings -> Library, you can see them from outside systems like a Windows pc or a Mac. However, when you want to copy anything to it, it won't allow. 

I see, not sure why, I have not tried network music file sharing, you should write to Euphony directly about it. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Yes, I have done this myself, my Euphony OS is running on a 2.5" SSD internal drive, which can be placed into the PC directly.

 Best to have separate LPS booting it. Currently I am still not able to do the V3 trial for some strange reason, at least not able to boot via USB stick. Euphony OS works great otherwise, though I still dislike the library management of the stylus so perhaps those combination of Roon+ Euphony would work for some, I don't use Roon, only single box system. 

It does not really matter where your music is stored, as you can use "Ecache" that immediately load the file into the drive of the OS (but not RAM) and then when you play the file, it is loaded into RAM (at least this is how I think it works). I store my music on external HDD (Spin) and I can't tell much difference with playing directly (except if your computer is not powerful enough, there may be signal disconnect when you try to load the file into the Euphony OS, while playing music at the same time). I think if you Don't store music locally in there Euphony OS drive, 8 GB may be adequate but since SDD are so cheap, perhaps a 128 GB at least so you can easily keep some music locally that you play all the time.  

It also takes a bit of time to load/connect external library to the Euphony OS. 

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:44 AM, Chopin75 said:

Yes, I have done this myself, my Euphony OS is running on a 2.5" SSD internal drive, which can be placed into the PC directly.

 Best to have separate LPS booting it. Currently I am still not able to do the V3 trial for some strange reason, at least not able to boot via USB stick. Euphony OS works great otherwise, though I still dislike the library management of the stylus so perhaps those combination of Roon+ Euphony would work for some, I don't use Roon, only single box system. 

It does not really matter where your music is stored, as you can use "Ecache" that immediately load the file into the drive of the OS (but not RAM) and then when you play the file, it is loaded into RAM (at least this is how I think it works). I store my music on external HDD (Spin) and I can't tell much difference with playing directly (except if your computer is not powerful enough, there may be signal disconnect when you try to load the file into the Euphony OS, while playing music at the same time). I think if you Don't store music locally in there Euphony OS drive, 8 GB may be adequate but since SDD are so cheap, perhaps a 128 GB at least so you can easily keep some music locally that you play all the time.  

It also takes a bit of time to load/connect external library to the Euphony OS. 

Update, Euphony got back to me that my old macbook cannot be booted by latest V3. Need to change some parameters for it work.. I will just try it on my HDplex PC once my new LPS arrives. Stay tune!.  Note there is much improvement in my current old setup with euphony V2 on my 2011 Macbook after I switched to using a nice decware power conditioner. Definitely more space/3D imaging, instrument separation/dynamics. Euphony OS surely is sensitive to power supply, at least for single box system. Not if it is the same with the Roon folks / multibox setup etc..

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14 hours ago, motberg said:

Just my opinion, but I think that there is a substantial international market for a proper simple player/OS/remote, with HQPlayer based oversampling option (and maybe VST plug-in options for EQ, etc), available as a single software package that will run on both single and dual PC's and offering the highest level of sound quality. 

 

(I am not sure if there is any type of consensus in the industry concerning a technical benefit to the streamer/end-point configuration, but it sure seems to me that a lot of computer audiophiles would consider this is the case. )

Well, as you may already know, I am a single box guy but most folks here are multibox dudes.  I can't be bothered with multiple boxes both because I am too stupid to try to figure out which boxes do what and also I am running out of space, (I also need to accommodate my CD player, SACD player, Vinyl) but also I am doing multi-channels with at least 3 power amps etc... 5 speakers... there is no way I will want 3 boxes just to do digital files.

Your idea of HQplayer embedded in the OS/server is possible and quite common in single boxes (found in commercial world). The folks here are computer wizards who can do all sort of computer manipulations including changing the  speed of the PC !  This is not for normal consumers. I think I am half way between the regular commercial consumer  vs hardcore computer audiophiles.  - Some tweek/DIY but not completely so.,

Euphony offers this kind of flexibility, - you can just use it as 1 box with embedded HQplayer, (though it clicks with changing track, rather annoying) and sound quite nice, though I am usually only using the euphony Stylus. HQplayer has too much processing at times and has its own sound signature, 

 

Is it more cost effective in an ultra single box vs multiple boxes ?  Not sure. I can imagine the complexity of adding 2-3 LPS, 2-3 bridges etc would just complicate things such that the sound may be contaminated/compromised along the path. But how do I know? I have never tried M-boxes

Someone on this tread (or the euphony thread ?) compared Roon + AL vs Euphony  and Euphony is better (I think it is a simpler pathway too, can't remember the detail). Roon I heard is best for library management and allows one to play music in different locations. But for sound quality, is it actually superior ?? Maybe it is compared with other network playing method ? 

 

I am trying to aim for simplicity and use the best (affordable) essential components e.g clock, bridge/LPS and eliminate unneeded gadgets. Use the shortest USB etc .... so no files extracted from far away corner to the end point and going through multiple boxes via ethernet, USB, HDMI and god knows what else it will pass before it reaches the DAC. 

 

 

 

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