Jump to content
pkane2001

DeltaWave null-testing audio comparator (beta)

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

All's fine, thanks Paul 😃

 

Good to hear, Frank! 

 

I did look into your report and indeed there was a problem with phase alignment in the first few seconds of a track -- it was still aligned to sub-sample accuracy, but about 10x worse than the rest of the track. This is now fixed and I'll publish a new version later today or tomorrow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can the comparison be saved to a file or piped to a UPnP/DLNA server, and if so, does anyone have a suggestion for one?  Would like to listen to @esldude's files on my main system if I can, which takes its signal from my Windows desktop in the office through a microRendu in the living/listening room.  If not I'll listen on my desktop system and/or headphones.

 

I see the Save Compare Wave and Save Delta Wave options, but am not certain what they do, and am wary they might display the file differences I'm supposed to be listening for blinded.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, before we go further: Tried to play the files through the desktop system and getting no sound. (?)


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jud said:

OK, before we go further: Tried to play the files through the desktop system and getting no sound. (?)

 

What was selected in the DW driver selector drop-down? Did the progress indicated start updating at the bottom? Did the play buttons turn into pause buttons?

 

Oh, and by the way, did you click on Match button before trying to play? The files are not loaded or processed until you click on Match. Show button will also load the files and display some raw plots, but will not try to match them. You can play (or save) the tracks after you Match them, or just Show them, but not before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jud said:

Can the comparison be saved to a file or piped to a UPnP/DLNA server, and if so, does anyone have a suggestion for one?  Would like to listen to @esldude's files on my main system if I can, which takes its signal from my Windows desktop in the office through a microRendu in the living/listening room.  If not I'll listen on my desktop system and/or headphones.

 

I see the Save Compare Wave and Save Delta Wave options, but am not certain what they do, and am wary they might display the file differences I'm supposed to be listening for blinded.

 

Save options let you write the corresponding tracks to a 32-bit WAV file at the same sample rate as the track. If you save the Compare track, you'll save the processed file adjusted to match the Reference track in level and phase. If you save the delta track, you are saving the difference between Compare and Reference tracks -- this is what the difference sounds like. Again, saved as 32-bit WAV file, but if the match is good, the level will be significantly lower than the other two tracks. You can play these files in any player software that supports WAV files and 32-bit/sample rate of the original.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Version 1.0.15b is out!

Changes in this version:

  • Fixed a problem that caused a larger phase difference in the first few seconds of a track compared to the rest of the track @fas42
  • Removed non-linear polynomial gain correction option
  • Removed non-linear drift correction option
  • Added non-linear EQ/frequency matching correction (use with caution, only if there are gross differences in spectra of the two tracks!) @esldude
       1552450438817.png

 

Here's what EQ does on a track. Before EQ:
1552450711023.png


After EQ:
1552450645357.png
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2019 at 7:32 PM, pkane2001 said:

 

What was selected in the DW driver selector drop-down? Did the progress indicated start updating at the bottom? Did the play buttons turn into pause buttons?

 

Oh, and by the way, did you click on Match button before trying to play? The files are not loaded or processed until you click on Match. Show button will also load the files and display some raw plots, but will not try to match them. You can play (or save) the tracks after you Match them, or just Show them, but not before.

 

It was not clicking the Match button - thank you.

 

I believe that playing Ref & Comp will play the left stereo channel of one piece, and the right stereo channel of the other, correct?  Because that' doesn't work for me as a comparison - of course the two channels will sound different.  What I'm after is combining the stereo channels of each of the ref and comp tracks into mono, and playing those mono tracks as the left and right stereo channels of the comparison between the two.  Then when I play them back if they're audibly identical I should get a fused single image right down the center of the soundstage.  I want to see if I hear differences between left and right, any "fusion" defects, under those conditions.

 

I could do that in Audacity, but I'd see the waveforms and know which was which.  I don't know what would be involved in doing it "automatically."  Is this possible, or too much of a pain?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Jud said:

I believe that playing Ref & Comp will play the left stereo channel of one piece, and the right stereo channel of the other, correct? 

 

No. You load only one channel of each track into DeltaWave, not stereo. You specify what channels you want from each file (selector L or R is right next to the file name):

image.png.e7c96f14ae50c58ca2272f90f233823e.png

 

Once you press Match, these two mono tracks (both left in the above screen shot) will be adjusted to be as close as possible in phase and level. Then, when you play Ref & Comp, Ref will be played in the left ear and Comp will be played in the right ear. 

 

47 minutes ago, Jud said:

I want to see if I hear differences between left and right, any "fusion" defects, under those conditions.

 

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do :)

 

By the way, @Jud, there are a few other possibilities I've tried with this test to help aid in detection, and they didn't seem to help that much. One was to swap the two channels every few seconds while playing. I imagined that the center position of the sound would switch during playback and that should be fairly obvious, but it really wasn't.

 

The next test I want to run is to swap them at a much higher rate -- something like at 2-3kHz. To my mind, if there are slight differences that are at all audible this should result in a detectable 3kHz signal on top of the music. But it will be at a very low level if the match is good (delta wave magnitude is low), so I picked 3kHz as being in the most sensitive part of our hearing range. We'll see if that works any better :) I also have a few ideas on improving the ABX comparator to help aid in detection of differences. Stay tuned!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

No. You load only one channel of each track into DeltaWave, not stereo. You specify what channels you want from each file (selector L or R is right next to the file name):

image.png.e7c96f14ae50c58ca2272f90f233823e.png

 

Once you press Match, these two mono tracks (both left in the above screen shot) will be adjusted to be as close as possible in phase and level. Then, when you play Ref & Comp, Ref will be played in the left ear and Comp will be played in the right ear. 

 

 

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do :)

 

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate. :) We're using the same words to mean different things, I think.

 

I'd like the option to mixdown each stereo track into mono, then compare the two resulting mono tracks as the left and right channels in Play Ref & Comp.  

 

So you could select, as input for each comparison channel, the left channels of the respective tracks, the right channels, *or both channels of each track mixed down to mono*. Is this possible, or a pain to do? Or is it already available and I'm being thick?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate. :) We're using the same words to mean different things, I think.

 

I'd like the option to mixdown each stereo track into mono, then compare the two resulting mono tracks as the left and right channels in Play Ref & Comp.  

 

So you could select, as input for each comparison channel, the left channels of the respective tracks, the right channels, *or both channels of each track mixed down to mono*. Is this possible, or a pain to do? Or is it already available and I'm being thick?

 

I think I understand what you mean. But why would this be a useful test? What does mixing down to mono give you? You are not listening to the original tracks anymore. Instead, it would be some mathematical (i.e., processed) combination of the two channels that normally doesn't occur in nature :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I think I understand what you mean. But why would this be a useful test? What does mixing down to mono give you? You are not listening to the original tracks anymore. Instead, it would be some mathematical (i.e., processed) combination of the two channels that normally doesn't occur in nature :)

 

Mixing down to mono gives you the full artist's intention for the music, just with the stereo effect removed.  I think that listening to two left or two right channels results in something the artist never intended us to hear.

 

Ever see those photographic portraits that use only half the face, one side the original and the other the mirror image?  Neither the "two left sides" nor "two right sides" image looks anything like the person's actual portrait.  That's what Delta Wave is doing now.  I'd rather look at two photographs of a person side by side and compare, which to me is what the intermediate mixdown to mono gets you.

 

I did something very similar when comparing speaker cables recently. (I intend to post about this soon.) I hooked up one manufacturer's cable to the left speaker and the other to the right speaker.  While I started out playing mono material, I quickly realized that since my preamp has a mono switch I could use more recently recorded material and just flip that switch. It mixed down the two stereo channels to mono and sent that mono signal to the amp and speakers, making simultaneous comparison of the two manufacturer's cables simple.

 

Having experienced this and thought it worked nicely, I'd be interested to see if the same sort of thing could be made quick and easy with software.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Mixing down to mono gives you the full artist's intention for the music, just with the stereo effect removed.  I think that listening to two left or two right channels results in something the artist never intended us to hear.

 

Ever see those photographic portraits that use only half the face, one side the original and the other the mirror image?  Neither the "two left sides" nor "two right sides" image looks anything like the person's actual portrait.  That's what Delta Wave is doing now.  I'd rather look at two photographs of a person side by side and compare, which to me is what the intermediate mixdown to mono gets you.

 

I did something very similar when comparing speaker cables recently. (I intend to post about this soon.) I hooked up one manufacturer's cable to the left speaker and the other to the right speaker.  While I started out playing mono material, I quickly realized that since my preamp has a mono switch I could use more recently recorded material and just flip that switch. It mixed down the two stereo channels to mono and sent that mono signal to the amp and speakers, making simultaneous comparison of the two manufacturer's cables simple.

 

Having experienced this and thought it worked nicely, I'd be interested to see if the same sort of thing could be made quick and easy with software.

 

I don't think a recording made for stereo, mixed down to mono is the way the artist intended for us to hear it, either :)

 

Probably not a big deal to implement something like this, but let me think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

I don't think a recording made for stereo, mixed down to mono is the way the artist intended for us to hear it, either :)

 

Probably not a big deal to implement something like this, but let me think about it.

 

You're right of course, but having done it, I don't think you lose as much as leaving out an entire channel.

 

In any case, thanks for your consideration.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's got it!  

 

Now I actually thought I could tell slight differences in @esldude's files just on my inexpensive desktop system, but my thinking could very, very easily have been affected by the visual from the file matching run.  So another feature request (I know, here I've hardly begun using the program and I have all these requests): A "test mode" where the match is done, but no visual is shown.  Or have I once again asked for something already in the program?  :) 


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Excellent! If you don't want to see the charts or the results, simply uncheck all of them under settings, and you'll see a blank page, instead:

image.png.7208d6aca75f8852fd878202ab5e0c19.png

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

 

Nice :( I didn’t try doing those two things at the same time!

 

@Jud, what you can do for now is unselect all and then check just Lissajous. That's not going to give anything away if you don't touch the controls. I'll update with the real fix ASAP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

You mean you've broken it already? 🤯

 

It is a nice piece of software with some very good uses.  Paul has really done something good for us. 

 

I can confirm with everything unchecked I get the result Jud did. Also that if you leave only Lissajous checked it doesn't show you anything and does not have any errors.  So for now that workaround will do.  

 

So with this Jud you can play Ref and file A, then Ref and file B.  One should be the cleanest mono when both files are actually the same, and one should show something different. 

 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, esldude said:

 

It is a nice piece of software with some very good uses.  Paul has really done something good for us. 

 

 

Yes, I was actually thinking of some uses regarding a certain format billing itself as "master quality."


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of which -

 

I'm not able to access the computer with DWave on it at the moment, but wanted to ask: If there's a good chance this "master quality" stuff uses minimum phase filters at the ADC end, if I don't want to disturb that I assume there's a setting to toggle if one doesn't want to match phase?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh! Also - Is there a standard channel in which the Ref and Comp are each played?  That is, whatever is designated as the Reference is always played back in the left channel and the Comp is always played back in the right channel?  Or is this configurable in Settings or elsewhere?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, A+ -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> iFi micro-iDSD -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...