DeltaWave null-testing audio comparator (beta)

[pkane2001]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

All's fine, thanks Paul 😃

 

Good to hear, Frank! 

 

I did look into your report and indeed there was a problem with phase alignment in the first few seconds of a track -- it was still aligned to sub-sample accuracy, but about 10x worse than the rest of the track. This is now fixed and I'll publish a new version later today or tomorrow. 

[fas42]

Great! 👍

[Jud]

Can the comparison be saved to a file or piped to a UPnP/DLNA server, and if so, does anyone have a suggestion for one?  Would like to listen to @esldude's files on my main system if I can, which takes its signal from my Windows desktop in the office through a microRendu in the living/listening room.  If not I'll listen on my desktop system and/or headphones.

 

I see the Save Compare Wave and Save Delta Wave options, but am not certain what they do, and am wary they might display the file differences I'm supposed to be listening for blinded.

[Jud]

OK, before we go further: Tried to play the files through the desktop system and getting no sound. (?)

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

OK, before we go further: Tried to play the files through the desktop system and getting no sound. (?)

 

What was selected in the DW driver selector drop-down? Did the progress indicated start updating at the bottom? Did the play buttons turn into pause buttons?

 

Oh, and by the way, did you click on Match button before trying to play? The files are not loaded or processed until you click on Match. Show button will also load the files and display some raw plots, but will not try to match them. You can play (or save) the tracks after you Match them, or just Show them, but not before.

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

Can the comparison be saved to a file or piped to a UPnP/DLNA server, and if so, does anyone have a suggestion for one?  Would like to listen to @esldude's files on my main system if I can, which takes its signal from my Windows desktop in the office through a microRendu in the living/listening room.  If not I'll listen on my desktop system and/or headphones.

 

I see the Save Compare Wave and Save Delta Wave options, but am not certain what they do, and am wary they might display the file differences I'm supposed to be listening for blinded.

 

Save options let you write the corresponding tracks to a 32-bit WAV file at the same sample rate as the track. If you save the Compare track, you'll save the processed file adjusted to match the Reference track in level and phase. If you save the delta track, you are saving the difference between Compare and Reference tracks -- this is what the difference sounds like. Again, saved as 32-bit WAV file, but if the match is good, the level will be significantly lower than the other two tracks. You can play these files in any player software that supports WAV files and 32-bit/sample rate of the original.

 

[pkane2001]

Version 1.0.15b is out!

Changes in this version:

• Fixed a problem that caused a larger phase difference in the first few seconds of a track compared to the rest of the track @fas42
• Removed non-linear polynomial gain correction option
• Removed non-linear drift correction option
• Added non-linear EQ/frequency matching correction (use with caution, only if there are gross differences in spectra of the two tracks!) @esldude

       

 

Here's what EQ does on a track. Before EQ:

After EQ:

 

 

[Jud]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:32 PM, pkane2001 said:

 

What was selected in the DW driver selector drop-down? Did the progress indicated start updating at the bottom? Did the play buttons turn into pause buttons?

 

Oh, and by the way, did you click on Match button before trying to play? The files are not loaded or processed until you click on Match. Show button will also load the files and display some raw plots, but will not try to match them. You can play (or save) the tracks after you Match them, or just Show them, but not before.

 

It was not clicking the Match button - thank you.

 

I believe that playing Ref & Comp will play the left stereo channel of one piece, and the right stereo channel of the other, correct?  Because that' doesn't work for me as a comparison - of course the two channels will sound different.  What I'm after is combining the stereo channels of each of the ref and comp tracks into mono, and playing those mono tracks as the left and right stereo channels of the comparison between the two.  Then when I play them back if they're audibly identical I should get a fused single image right down the center of the soundstage.  I want to see if I hear differences between left and right, any "fusion" defects, under those conditions.

 

I could do that in Audacity, but I'd see the waveforms and know which was which.  I don't know what would be involved in doing it "automatically."  Is this possible, or too much of a pain?

[pkane2001]

47 minutes ago, Jud said:

I believe that playing Ref & Comp will play the left stereo channel of one piece, and the right stereo channel of the other, correct? 

 

No. You load only one channel of each track into DeltaWave, not stereo. You specify what channels you want from each file (selector L or R is right next to the file name):

 

Once you press Match, these two mono tracks (both left in the above screen shot) will be adjusted to be as close as possible in phase and level. Then, when you play Ref & Comp, Ref will be played in the left ear and Comp will be played in the right ear. 

 

47 minutes ago, Jud said:

I want to see if I hear differences between left and right, any "fusion" defects, under those conditions.

 

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do 

 

[pkane2001]

8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do 

 

By the way, @Jud, there are a few other possibilities I've tried with this test to help aid in detection, and they didn't seem to help that much. One was to swap the two channels every few seconds while playing. I imagined that the center position of the sound would switch during playback and that should be fairly obvious, but it really wasn't.

 

The next test I want to run is to swap them at a much higher rate -- something like at 2-3kHz. To my mind, if there are slight differences that are at all audible this should result in a detectable 3kHz signal on top of the music. But it will be at a very low level if the match is good (delta wave magnitude is low), so I picked 3kHz as being in the most sensitive part of our hearing range. We'll see if that works any better  I also have a few ideas on improving the ABX comparator to help aid in detection of differences. Stay tuned!

 

[Jud]

10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

No. You load only one channel of each track into DeltaWave, not stereo. You specify what channels you want from each file (selector L or R is right next to the file name):

 

Once you press Match, these two mono tracks (both left in the above screen shot) will be adjusted to be as close as possible in phase and level. Then, when you play Ref & Comp, Ref will be played in the left ear and Comp will be played in the right ear. 

 

 

That's exactly what playing Ref & Comp is meant to do 

 

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  We're using the same words to mean different things, I think.

 

I'd like the option to mixdown each stereo track into mono, then compare the two resulting mono tracks as the left and right channels in Play Ref & Comp.  

 

So you could select, as input for each comparison channel, the left channels of the respective tracks, the right channels, *or both channels of each track mixed down to mono*. Is this possible, or a pain to do? Or is it already available and I'm being thick?

[pkane2001]

12 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  We're using the same words to mean different things, I think.

 

I'd like the option to mixdown each stereo track into mono, then compare the two resulting mono tracks as the left and right channels in Play Ref & Comp.  

 

So you could select, as input for each comparison channel, the left channels of the respective tracks, the right channels, *or both channels of each track mixed down to mono*. Is this possible, or a pain to do? Or is it already available and I'm being thick?

 

I think I understand what you mean. But why would this be a useful test? What does mixing down to mono give you? You are not listening to the original tracks anymore. Instead, it would be some mathematical (i.e., processed) combination of the two channels that normally doesn't occur in nature

[Jud]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I think I understand what you mean. But why would this be a useful test? What does mixing down to mono give you? You are not listening to the original tracks anymore. Instead, it would be some mathematical (i.e., processed) combination of the two channels that normally doesn't occur in nature

 

Mixing down to mono gives you the full artist's intention for the music, just with the stereo effect removed.  I think that listening to two left or two right channels results in something the artist never intended us to hear.

 

Ever see those photographic portraits that use only half the face, one side the original and the other the mirror image?  Neither the "two left sides" nor "two right sides" image looks anything like the person's actual portrait.  That's what Delta Wave is doing now.  I'd rather look at two photographs of a person side by side and compare, which to me is what the intermediate mixdown to mono gets you.

 

I did something very similar when comparing speaker cables recently. (I intend to post about this soon.) I hooked up one manufacturer's cable to the left speaker and the other to the right speaker.  While I started out playing mono material, I quickly realized that since my preamp has a mono switch I could use more recently recorded material and just flip that switch. It mixed down the two stereo channels to mono and sent that mono signal to the amp and speakers, making simultaneous comparison of the two manufacturer's cables simple.

 

Having experienced this and thought it worked nicely, I'd be interested to see if the same sort of thing could be made quick and easy with software.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Mixing down to mono gives you the full artist's intention for the music, just with the stereo effect removed.  I think that listening to two left or two right channels results in something the artist never intended us to hear.

 

Ever see those photographic portraits that use only half the face, one side the original and the other the mirror image?  Neither the "two left sides" nor "two right sides" image looks anything like the person's actual portrait.  That's what Delta Wave is doing now.  I'd rather look at two photographs of a person side by side and compare, which to me is what the intermediate mixdown to mono gets you.

 

I did something very similar when comparing speaker cables recently. (I intend to post about this soon.) I hooked up one manufacturer's cable to the left speaker and the other to the right speaker.  While I started out playing mono material, I quickly realized that since my preamp has a mono switch I could use more recently recorded material and just flip that switch. It mixed down the two stereo channels to mono and sent that mono signal to the amp and speakers, making simultaneous comparison of the two manufacturer's cables simple.

 

Having experienced this and thought it worked nicely, I'd be interested to see if the same sort of thing could be made quick and easy with software.

 

I don't think a recording made for stereo, mixed down to mono is the way the artist intended for us to hear it, either 

 

Probably not a big deal to implement something like this, but let me think about it.

[Jud]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

I don't think a recording made for stereo, mixed down to mono is the way the artist intended for us to hear it, either 

 

Probably not a big deal to implement something like this, but let me think about it.

 

You're right of course, but having done it, I don't think you lose as much as leaving out an entire channel.

 

In any case, thanks for your consideration.

[pkane2001]

DeltaWave Version 1.0.17 is now available

• Fixed a problem with the Index out of Bounds error when engaging DC offset removal option
• Fixed a problem that resulted in Reference level being adjusted to match Comparison, instead of the other way around
• Added support for down-mixing stereo files into a mono track for comparison @Jud 
  (DSD is not supported with L+R yet) 
• Fixed a small glitch with FFT windowing routine that resulted in a low frequency spurious tone with certain window types
• Added track RMS and peak values before and after matching to the Results tab
• Added drag-and-drop of individual files to the Reference and Comparison boxes

Thanks to all that reported issues and made new feature suggestions! DeltaWave is getting better and better

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

You're right of course, but having done it, I don't think you lose as much as leaving out an entire channel.

 

In any case, thanks for your consideration.

 

Here you go, Jud, version 1.0.17

 

   

 

[Jud]

That's got it!  

 

Now I actually thought I could tell slight differences in @esldude's files just on my inexpensive desktop system, but my thinking could very, very easily have been affected by the visual from the file matching run.  So another feature request (I know, here I've hardly begun using the program and I have all these requests): A "test mode" where the match is done, but no visual is shown.  Or have I once again asked for something already in the program?   

[pkane2001]

19 minutes ago, Jud said:

That's got it!  

 

Now I actually thought I could tell slight differences in @esldude's files just on my inexpensive desktop system, but my thinking could very, very easily have been affected by the visual from the file matching run.  So another feature request (I know, here I've hardly begun using the program and I have all these requests): A "test mode" where the match is done, but no visual is shown.  Or have I once again asked for something already in the program?   

 

Excellent! If you don't want to see the charts or the results, simply uncheck all of them under settings, and you'll see a blank page, instead:

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Excellent! If you don't want to see the charts or the results, simply uncheck all of them under settings, and you'll see a blank page, instead:

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

[pkane2001]

15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

 

Nice  I didn’t try doing those two things at the same time!

 

@Jud, what you can do for now is unselect all and then check just Lissajous. That's not going to give anything away if you don't touch the controls. I'll update with the real fix ASAP.

[esldude]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Tried unchecking all the display options, now get the following error when trying to play Ref&Comp:

 

2019-03-14 18:44:05.1812|ERROR|Wave.Program|Unhandled thread exception
   at Wave.WaveForm.GetAll(Control control, Type type) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4388
   at Wave.WaveForm.currentWavePlot() in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 4264
   at Wave.WaveForm.playRefCompToolStripMenuItem_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\Users\ypa\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Wave\Wave\WaveForm.cs:line 5403
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.RaiseEvent(Object key, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripMenuItem.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripItem.HandleMouseUp(MouseEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mea)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStrip.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ToolStripDropDown.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

You mean you've broken it already? 🤯

 

It is a nice piece of software with some very good uses.  Paul has really done something good for us. 

 

I can confirm with everything unchecked I get the result Jud did. Also that if you leave only Lissajous checked it doesn't show you anything and does not have any errors.  So for now that workaround will do.  

 

So with this Jud you can play Ref and file A, then Ref and file B.  One should be the cleanest mono when both files are actually the same, and one should show something different. 

 

[Jud]

11 hours ago, esldude said:

 

It is a nice piece of software with some very good uses.  Paul has really done something good for us. 

 

 

Yes, I was actually thinking of some uses regarding a certain format billing itself as "master quality."

[Jud]

Speaking of which -

 

I'm not able to access the computer with DWave on it at the moment, but wanted to ask: If there's a good chance this "master quality" stuff uses minimum phase filters at the ADC end, if I don't want to disturb that I assume there's a setting to toggle if one doesn't want to match phase?

[Jud]

Oh! Also - Is there a standard channel in which the Ref and Comp are each played?  That is, whatever is designated as the Reference is always played back in the left channel and the Comp is always played back in the right channel?  Or is this configurable in Settings or elsewhere?