Bricasti Model 3 DAC

[rickca]

I just discovered this announcement.  Interesting at $4995.  @austinpop I guess you've already settled on HMS/TT2?

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/03/02/bricasti-design-launches-model-3-digital-to-analog-converter/

 

Here's the manual:

http://www.bricasti.com/images/product_downloads/m3_user_guide.pdf

[firedog]

Yes, looks like an interesting unit with separate paths for pcm and dsd; dsd is one bit path.

[rickca]

Clocking is implemented with a technique called DDS (direct digital synthesis) which takes clock induced jitter to immeasurable levels.

@JohnSwenson can you explain a bit about DDS?

[JohnSwenson]

5 hours ago, rickca said:

Clocking is implemented with a technique called DDS (direct digital synthesis) which takes clock induced jitter to immeasurable levels.

@JohnSwenson can you explain a bit about DDS?

I don't know what this statement is about, DDS has nothing to do with clock generation. DDS is a way to generate (note, not play but generate) an analog wave form such as a sine wave. You have a counter which counts up and down a certain number of bits (8 bits, 16 bits, 24 bits etc). If you feed the output of the counter into a DAC chip you get a triangle wave. Converting into a sine wave is usually done with a look up table. But if the number of bits is high that lookup table can be HUGE. FPGAs are getting good enough that a trigonometric processor can actually do the calculations on the fly, even at very high bit depths.

 

There are a couple of different ways of getting that initial triangle wave. A common one is say have a 32 bit accumulator (register and adder) and a fixed sample rate (44.1, 192 whatever). Every click of the sample clock you add a number into the accumulator. This number changes with the frequency of the sine wave you want to generate. For a higher frequency you use a higher number.

 

This type of circuit has nothing to do with jitter attenuation, the jitter in the clock is directly transmitted to the output.

 

I don't get what DDS has to do with clocking, it's all about generating a specific frequency sine wave, why would you use that for clocking? DDS is great for building a synthesizer (thing with a keyboard and music comes out) but for playing back music I don't get it.

 

I supposed they could be meaning that they use the part about using different numbers into an accumulator to generate word clocks from a high frequency oscillator rather than using an analog PLL. This is usually called a DPLL. This works by having circuitry in the FPGA or processor code change the number sent to the accumulator such that the time that the accumulator overflows is somewhat close to the reference. The problem with this is that if you need fairly fine frequency change you need a very high frequency local clock. The frequency resolution is usually fairly coarse so the output frequency is jumping around rather than smoothly following the input reference. But personally I do not call this "DDS" there is no analog waveform coming out of this. If they are using a Digital Phase Locked Loop, just call it that.

 

They COULD be meaning that they are using a DPLL to generate the internal word clock, that can very well have lower jitter than an analog PLL, but the output frequency will probably be bouncing around. But the jitter is still not immeasurable.

 

The info in the quote doesn't give anywhere near enough info to figure out what is actually happening in the circuit.

 

John S.

[One and a half]

Odd, the press release doesn't mention Roon, rather a DLNA Ethernet and then only an option. The M1, M5 are Roon certified. Perhaps a future certification is coming.

[firedog]

I'd be extremely surprised if it isn't the same ethernet module as in the M1 and M5. No reason they would make a whole new board. I'm sure it's just a technicality of "certification".

[matthias]

11 hours ago, rickca said:

I just discovered this announcement.  Interesting at $4995.  @austinpop I guess you've already settled on HMS/TT2?

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/03/02/bricasti-design-launches-model-3-digital-to-analog-converter/

 

Here's the manual:

http://www.bricasti.com/images/product_downloads/m3_user_guide.pdf

 

Would be nice to compare to both  the more expensive Bricasti Model 1 and the less expensive new Holo Spring2 which has also two separate DACs, one for PCM and one for DSD.

 

Matt

[matthias]

It is a pity that it does not allow more than DSD128 via DoP,

but it is by far the best-looking Bricasti DAC ever.

 

Matt

[rickca]

13 minutes ago, matthias said:

It is a pity that it does not allow more than DSD128 via DoP,

but it is by far the best-looking Bricasti DAC ever.

 

Matt

Yes, looks like all their DACs are limited to DSD128 via DOP.  I'm not sure why.

[barrows]

This DAC is on my radar.  For a component made in the USA it appears to offer fair value for what appears to be high build quality.  The interest for me is in the DSD DAC...  The specifications suggest the DSD circuit is very close to that of the M21.  It would be nice to learn more details of the DSD conversion approach applied.  I suspect the analog circuits will be fine, being Bricasti.

[matthias]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

Yes, looks like all their DACs are limited to DSD128 via DOP.  I'm not sure why.

 

It is strange, indeed.

Hopefully they offer a SE version for M3 as well.

 

Matt

 

[Neal.Audio]

I'm a Bricasti AD and will try to answer some of the questions posed and more. 

 

$4995 is the base price. Ethernet and Remote are options, $1k and $500 respectively. The ethernet board is the same as found in the M1 option... and same as the M5 Network Player.

 

It’s not Roon ready, but that's coming soon with a firmware update. The Roon implementation on the M1 SE is top notch, so no reason to believe they won't accomplish the same with the M5.

 

The M1 SE is an unbelievable performer imo. Yet the M3 has two power supplies instead of three for the M1 SE. When asked how the M3 performs, I'm told it sounds more like an M21... meaning it's more forward and detailed, but more musical than the M1 SE. 

 

Bricasti DACs carry a limited lifetime warranty (meaning don't drop it and they'll warranty it). It's not transferable. This warranty is pretty much much unheard of in the industry. Made in America... 

 

I can go on and on but don't want to turn this into a wall of marketing. TL;DR: I'm a big fan. 

 

[matthias]

5 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

The M1 SE is an unbelievable performer imo. Yet the M3 has two power supplies instead of three for the M1 SE. When asked how the M3 performs, I'm told it sounds more like an M21... meaning it's more forward and detailed, but more musical than the M1 SE. 

 

So the M3 is more musical than the M1 SE?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Neal.Audio]

^ So I'm told. Though this would be a real accomplishment given how musical the M1 SE is. It's also reported that the M1 has a larger sound stage, though the M3 clearly images better (images like an M21).

 

Bottom line is that they're different sounding, one not necessarily better than the other. Which is good since one is $10k and the other is $5k.

 

 

[matthias]

9 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

The ethernet board is the same as found in the M1 option... and same as the M5 Network Player.

 

Purely from a sound quality POV:

Does the Bricasti sound better via Ethernet than via USB or does it make more sense to buy a very good USB cable?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Neal.Audio]

^ This isn't always a cut and dried question. USB generally tends to be noisier, but it can depend on the cable and what's upstream. Some AS users have NUC renderers and audio switches in play so it cleans up the signal, but then left with USB only but with great results. Those without these products might be better served with ethernet in. 

 

For those without upstream treatments, I always recommend that people try both in their systems. 

[matthias]

4 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

Bottom line is that they're different sounding, one not necessarily better than the other. Which is good since one is $10k and the other is $5k.

 

I am curious about the first listening impressions in comparison to the M1.

 

Matt

[Neal.Audio]

The listening impressions described are not my own, but someone who's ears I trust. The first batch went to overseas dealers, and just started shipping domestically. 

[matthias]

19 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

The listening impressions described are not my own, but someone who's ears I trust.

 

Please keep us informed when you have compared directly M3 to M1.

Thanks

 

Matt

[barrows]

I would really to hear some more details about this DAC.  For example: in the DSD section: is this a discrete conversion solution (non IC, low pass filter approach)?  Does the DAC do the DSD conversion at its native rate (DSD 64 and DSD 128) or does it use its processing power to increase the sample rate before the conversion (remaining one bit)?

Is the DSD conversion section the same as it is in the M21?  It sounds like it may be...

Also, considering it allows for a native DSD path, why does the DAC not allow for higher DSD rates?  4x and 8x DSD are popular for those who like to oversample in software (and there is more music available recorded at DSD x4 every day from Channel Classics and Reference Recordings).  I certainly hope that Bricasti will consider upgrades to all of their DACs allowing for up to DSD 512 rates.

 

I am impressed that Bricasti has been able to produce what appears to be a very, very nice, DAC, with a quality build, in the USA, at a very reasonable price.

[firedog]

6 hours ago, barrows said:

I would really to hear some more details about this DAC.  For example: in the DSD section: is this a discrete conversion solution (non IC, low pass filter approach)?  Does the DAC do the DSD conversion at its native rate (DSD 64 and DSD 128) or does it use its processing power to increase the sample rate before the conversion (remaining one bit)?

Is the DSD conversion section the same as it is in the M21?  It sounds like it may be...

Also, considering it allows for a native DSD path, why does the DAC not allow for higher DSD rates?  4x and 8x DSD are popular for those who like to oversample in software (and there is more music available recorded at DSD x4 every day from Channel Classics and Reference Recordings).  I certainly hope that Bricasti will consider upgrades to all of their DACs allowing for up to DSD 512 rates.

 

I am impressed that Bricasti has been able to produce what appears to be a very, very nice, DAC, with a quality build, in the USA, at a very reasonable price.

There was a Hong kong based review of the M5  network player (https://personalaudio.hk/2017/12/15/bricasti-m5-streamer-networkplayer/) ; it said they succeeded in playing back DSD 512 via the M5.  I asked Bricasti about it and they said it was possible, but that they don't support it/haven't fully tested it. With my M5 can't get anything above DSD 128 to work on it.
 

I get the impression that the software side of things is part of the issue, and this doesn't seem to be Bricasti's strong point. Apparently they get all their software from an outside supplier, and don't have the ability to do much in terms of upgrades.

[barrows]

6 hours ago, firedog said:

I get the impression that the software side of things is part of the issue, and this doesn't seem to be Bricasti's strong point. Apparently they get all their software from an outside supplier, and don't have the ability to do much in terms of upgrades.

I wonder what they are using for USB hardware wise, if it is XMOS getting higher rates of native DSD to work should not be very difficult.  Also, if Bricasti has a lack in the coding area (internally or amongst their consultants) I would find it hard to believe they developed their own Ethernet interface.  

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, firedog said:

I get the impression that the software side of things is part of the issue, and this doesn't seem to be Bricasti's strong point. Apparently they get all their software from an outside supplier, and don't have the ability to do much in terms of upgrades.

 

Form my studies of their PCBs that does not seem likely. Lots of coding key to their products going on on the middle board with big SHARC chip.

https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/bricasti/2.html

4 hours ago, barrows said:

I wonder what they are using for USB hardware wise, if it is XMOS getting higher rates of native DSD to work should not be very difficult.  Also, if Bricasti has a lack in the coding area (internally or amongst their consultants) I would find it hard to believe they developed their own Ethernet interface.  

 

Yes, definitely XMOS for the USB input.  Integrated onto their main DSP board.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Form my studies of their PCBs that does not seem likely. Lots of coding key to their products going on on the middle board with big SHARC chip.

https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/bricasti/2.html

 

Yes, definitely XMOS for the USB input.  Integrated onto their main DSP board.

Well, a few of us asked Bricasti about adding the HQP NAA to their networked products and were told it wouldn’t happen. As I noted, apparently the programming is totally outsourced and a closed issue for them. No adding features to the OS unless they decide to contract for an expensive major update: At least that’s what was implied.  I’d assume similar issues explain why they are “stuck” at supporting DSD 128.

[barrows]

21 minutes ago, firedog said:

 I’d assume similar issues explain why they are “stuck” at supporting DSD 128.

I would not make the same assumption.  Getting their XMOS USB interface (I am playing with a $99 DAC board right now which handles native DSD 512 input no problem through its USB/XMOS input) to work at Native DSD 512 is an entirely different thing than coding the OS for their Ethernet Renderer.

It would be interesting to know more about their DSD conversion approach.  Often these "pure" DSD approaches work quite a bit better with DSD 256 and DSD 512-it makes me wonder if they are oversampling DSD in their processing chip to a higher rate.  In any case, with a "pure" DSD converter, Bricasti would be advised that supporting higher DSD rates will only help their sales.