Jud Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 hours ago, lucretius said: Windows users use either a WASAPI or ASIO driver for communication with a DAC/sound card. In exclusive mode, both WASAPI and ASIO drivers provide exclusive access and deliver an unmodified bit-stream to the sound device, bypassing the Windows system mixer (which can alter bits). In this case, the operating system has no effect on the quality of audio. OTOH, use of a PC motherboard's onboard audio chip can have a negative effect on audio quality (it depends on the implementation); nonetheless, anyone serious about audio will not use the onboard audio chip -- external DACs are the preference followed by dedicated sound cards. Unmodified bitstream and Direct Mode are not the same. Direct Mode is a MacOS device driver made to substitute for part of the MacOS audio stack, which is called Core Audio. This is obviously not the very same thing that is happening in Windows. Damien built the driver to get what he felt would be the best audio performance in accordance with the principles behind Audirvana. To what extent he has been able to do similar things to get the best audio performance from Windows, I don’t know. I personally stream to a microRendu, usually with Windows. Direct Mode isn’t available with this setup in any case. I think it sounds great. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
jimdukey Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Anyone else using both AV and HQ? Link to comment
Jud Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, jimdukey said: Anyone else using both AV and HQ? Yes. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
matthias Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Jud said: I personally stream to a microRendu, usually with Windows. Jud, did you directly compare SQ of Audirvana for Mac vs. Audirvana for Windows? Thanks Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Jud Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 My 2009 MacBook Pro can only do DSD256, while my Windows desktop can do DSD512 easily. Since I prefer DSD512 (or at least think I hear a difference and have this preference), and because the Windows machine is much newer and faster, I mostly use that. So the comparison isn't an equivalent one, and therefore I haven't bothered to make a careful listening comparison. Simply on an anecdotal level, both sound excellent to me. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
lucretius Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 hours ago, Jud said: Unmodified bitstream and Direct Mode are not the same. Direct Mode is a MacOS device driver made to substitute for part of the MacOS audio stack, which is called Core Audio. This is obviously not the very same thing that is happening in Windows. Damien built the driver to get what he felt would be the best audio performance in accordance with the principles behind Audirvana. To what extent he has been able to do similar things to get the best audio performance from Windows, I don’t know. I personally stream to a microRendu, usually with Windows. Direct Mode isn’t available with this setup in any case. I think it sounds great. I am not sure what your point is. For Windows, DirectSound is a deprecated software component of the Microsoft DirectX library of the operating system. In modern Windows, DirectSound runs in emulation mode (WASAPI Session instances) on the Windows system mixer. ASIO, WASAPI Exclusive, and WDM-KS (kernel streaming) are all bit-perfect. OTOH, DirectSound and WASAPI Shared do not provide bit-perfect guarantees. It depends what the Windows system mixer is doing, e.g. If the sample rate of the source file does not match the sample rate set in Windows, then you're at the mercy of the Windows sample rate converter. For Audirvana for Windows, one would generally use either WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO (assuming your not sending the output to a streamer - then you are relying on the streamer's driver). mQa is dead! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, lucretius said: I am not sure what your point is. We're even - I have no idea why you're talking about DirectSound on Windows when I was discussing Direct Mode on MacOS. 😄 1 hour ago, lucretius said: For Windows, DirectSound is a deprecated software component of the Microsoft DirectX library of the operating system. In modern Windows, DirectSound runs in emulation mode (WASAPI Session instances) on the Windows system mixer. ASIO, WASAPI Exclusive, and WDM-KS (kernel streaming) are all bit-perfect. OTOH, DirectSound and WASAPI Shared do not provide bit-perfect guarantees. It depends what the Windows system mixer is doing, e.g. If the sample rate of the source file does not match the sample rate set in Windows, then you're at the mercy of the Windows sample rate converter. For Audirvana for Windows, one would generally use either WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO (assuming your not sending the output to a streamer - then you are relying on the streamer's driver). lucretius 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
lucretius Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 49 minutes ago, Jud said: We're even - I have no idea why you're talking about DirectSound on Windows when I was discussing Direct Mode on MacOS. 😄 You stated "To what extent he [Damien] has been able to do similar things to get the best audio performance from Windows, I don’t know." The answer is he has done nothing of the sort for Windows; he has not created a custom driver for Windows nor does he need to. WASAPI and ASIO work perfectly well -- what could Damien possibly add? mQa is dead! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, lucretius said: You stated "To what extent he [Damien] has been able to do similar things to get the best audio performance from Windows, I don’t know." The answer is he has done nothing of the sort for Windows; he has not created a custom driver for Windows nor does he need to. WASAPI and ASIO work perfectly well -- what could Damien possibly add? One might well have asked the same about MacOS before Damien, to use his phrase, went “beyond bit perfect” to popularize Integer Mode and program the Direct Mode driver. http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/MAC-OSX-audio-players-Integer-Mode.pdf As you and I have both said, the same thing isn't currently going on in Audirvana for Windows. (It isn't going on for me with Mac either, since I'm streaming.) Would you then draw the conclusion there is nothing else Damien has done or could do for sound quality besides bit perfect playback? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
lucretius Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Jud said: One might well have asked the same about MacOS before Damien, to use his phrase, went “beyond bit perfect” to popularize Integer Mode and program the Direct Mode driver. http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/MAC-OSX-audio-players-Integer-Mode.pdf As you and I have both said, the same thing isn't currently going on in Audirvana for Windows. (It isn't going on for me with Mac either, since I'm streaming.) Would you then draw the conclusion there is nothing else Damien has done or could do for sound quality besides bit perfect playback? I don't believe jitter and RF interference are a problem that needs solving by software, And it isn't much of a concern for properly implemented DACs. Damien has already added upsampling and volume leveling, if one values that. I can't think of anything Damien could do other than add color, e.g. he could create: a) an equalizer (graphic and parametric) b) room correction c) crossfeed (for headphone use) mQa is dead! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, lucretius said: I don't believe jitter and RF interference are a problem that needs solving by software, And it isn't much of a concern for properly implemented DACs. Damien has already added upsampling and volume leveling, if one values that. I can't think of anything Damien could do other than add color, e.g. he could create: a) an equalizer (graphic and parametric) b) room correction c) crossfeed (for headphone use) And it's fine for you to feel that way. But I was responding in a forum topic devoted to software whose developer, and many of whose users, would not agree. Perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate for people who feel questions about Integer Mode, Direct Mode, and various other features and settings are a waste of time. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
lucretius Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Jud said: Perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate for people who feel questions about Integer Mode, Direct Mode, and various other features and settings are a waste of time. Well, you did ask. Nonetheless, I feel it is appropriate to question or offer differing opinion related to the "Integer Mode, Direct Mode, etc." sound drivers in this thread when it is being discussed. I am actually curious if any measurements have been taken comparing the use of Damien's direct mode "driver" with it's non-use. I also have to ask, is Damien's direct mode "driver" still relevant today? [I have and sometimes use a licensed copy of Audirvana for Windows.] mQa is dead! Link to comment
Jud Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, lucretius said: Well, you did ask. Nonetheless, I feel it is appropriate to question or offer differing opinion related to the "Integer Mode, Direct Mode, etc." sound drivers in this thread when it is being discussed. I am actually curious if any measurements have been taken comparing the use of Damien's direct mode "driver" with it's non-use. I also have to ask, is Damien's direct mode "driver" still relevant today? [I have and sometimes use a licensed copy of Audirvana for Windows.] The OP has and updates a guide to installing the Direct Mode driver that now includes Catalina, so yes it's still relevant. No measurements have been done that I know of. lucretius 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
rruffin Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Still running Mohave on a tricked out 2012 Mac Mini. Is there any sonic or feature reason to upgrade to Catalina? MacMini Quad i7/Audirvana Studio/USBridge DigiOne Signature Player/Schiit Yggdrasil GS/Aragon Palladium 1 amplifiers/Stacked Energy 22 speakers (Reference Connoisseur on bottom & Pro 22 on top) set tweeter to tweeter/Kimber Monocle XL speaker wires/Straightwire Crescendo & Virtuoso IC/Mordaunt Short 309 subwoofers Link to comment
RunHomeSlow Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 Tricked Catalina Direct Mode will bring you joy that can’t be measure 🤓 I’m on 😀 Try to convince me that sound changed from El Capitan to Catalina with same version of Audirvana... I think seriously that Audirvana changed its sound for better over the years, not Apple in anyway 😀 If You Got Ears, You Gotta Listen – Captain Beefheart MacMini 2018, 4xi3 3.6GHz, SSD, 20Gb, macOS Sonoma > Audirvana Origin > Wyred DAC2 DSD Special Edition > Proceed AMP2 > Focal Cobalt 826 Signature Series > Audirvana Remote > iPhone 13 Link to comment
Popular Post copy_of_a Posted January 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 3:39 AM, lucretius said: Damien has already added upsampling and volume leveling, if one values that. I can't think of anything Damien could do other than add color, e.g. he could create: DITHER! rruffin, buonassi and lucretius 3 ____________________________________________________ Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream (NAA) | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro | Avantone Pro Planar II Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | Pro-Ject Stereo Box S | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX Link to comment
audiocanyon Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 4:39 AM, lucretius said: Windows users use either a WASAPI or ASIO driver for communication with a DAC/sound card. In exclusive mode, both WASAPI and ASIO drivers provide exclusive access and deliver an unmodified bit-stream to the sound device, bypassing the Windows system mixer (which can alter bits). In this case, the operating system has no effect on the quality of audio. OTOH, use of a PC motherboard's onboard audio chip can have a negative effect on audio quality (it depends on the implementation); nonetheless, anyone serious about audio will not use the onboard audio chip -- external DACs are the preference followed by dedicated sound cards. Thanks for the response. I've got both Mac and Windows available so I might try Audirvana for Windows on laptop direct to my DAC and see if I can tell any difference. I've been enjoying Audirvana with Direct mode on my Mac for a few years, but am always interested in tweaking audio quality. 2012 Mac Mini, Mac Sierra OS, Audirvana 3.x, WireWorld Ultraviolet 7 USB Interconnect, Benchmark DAC2 L, Wireworld Equinox 7 Balanced XLR Interconnect, Belles 350A Amp, DIY Speaker Cables (18 strands of 22awg wire in circular array), DIY Carver Ribbon Speakers & Dayton Woofers Link to comment
BentonT Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I’ve been happy with the trial version running on windows10 and need to decide on a license. Would love to see amazon hd incorporated into audirvana but that’s probably an amazon restriction, not audirvanas. Another desirable feature would be to stream HD Radio off the internet. I’ve read it’s being considered, would audirvana consider this to be a near term or long term upgrade? 4est 1 now recording in hi-res... Link to comment
deho Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Where could I find a simple presentation of the various effects of the SoX filters ? So far, despite my friends Google & consorts, I've not been able to find one. I have seen a big improvement of the SQ by using DSD upsampling on my DLNA Technics SU-R1 but I'm confused about these filters and the A to C Delta-Sigma ones ... How to revert to the standard settings ? Thank you in advance ! Giacomino 1 • Flying NOE - Driving CJ & JK - Listening Technics - B&W • Link to comment
cpvniii Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 5/2/2019 at 10:47 PM, RunHomeSlow said: God damn!! Do you even know what you say? matthias 1 MacPro 24 GB/8TB / A+ and Pure Music / LAMPIZATOR B7 as Dac and Pre w/volume control / Regen /Intona USB Iso/curious USB / Emotive Audio Sira / PASS Aleph P / D-Sonic M3 600 mono's / MIT / Shunyata Alpha HC, Alpha Digital, Alpha Analogue, Weizhi PR-6 / Exact Power XP15a-4 balanced power distributor / FOCAL Maestro UTOPIA III's in red/black "In life's final analysis, one's relationship with his Maker is all that really matters." Link to comment
RunHomeSlow Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, cpvniii said: Do you even know what you say? i think very so... I'm sure your god was not affected by that, he knows where the damned fools are. By the way, you know which god i was reffering to in the two words that you quote out of the story before it? While writing or thinking about not writing an answer here, i saw your last line in your signature... and understood My maker, i love my Mothers... https://www.zappa.com/ P.S.: Whatever you wrote after or not, i won't answer to stay civilized... Don Blas De Lezo 1 If You Got Ears, You Gotta Listen – Captain Beefheart MacMini 2018, 4xi3 3.6GHz, SSD, 20Gb, macOS Sonoma > Audirvana Origin > Wyred DAC2 DSD Special Edition > Proceed AMP2 > Focal Cobalt 826 Signature Series > Audirvana Remote > iPhone 13 Link to comment
jamesg11 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Flipped back to AV from HQP, latest version. Can’t get redbook pcm etc to dsd256 upsampling functioning via ultra rendu into rme dac, set to pure dsd, as per HQP. Plays dsd files up to 256 fine. Settings I should check? ... can’t see the issue I’m afraid. Used to work okay! macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Since it's through a streamer, you have to do the DAC capability settings manually and force upsampling to DSD256 - assume you've done all that? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
jamesg11 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Thanks Jud, as per HQP I have AV set to upsample everything ie pcm to dsd256 (I’m aware AV won’t upsample dsd to higher dsd), & the RME dac is set to dsd mode. It now occurs to me that maybe the rendu’s dlna output mode, unlike hqp naa mode, may not enable dsd256 on a mac where the rme dac’s pcm upper limit is 384 ie uses dop? No problem with naa doing this of course. Anyone know if this is the issue? macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs. Link to comment
jamesg11 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Right, just looked at sonore site & dlna & naa have the same output options, including native dsd which avoids the max pcm mac trap. So there must be a setting in AV which selects that instead of dop? I’ll chase this later today. (Sun is up here in Oz ... no smoke in the air ... a good day!). macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now