Audirvana Plus 3.5

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1 hour ago, damien78 said:

Here it is !!

The public beta is now available!

great - looks good at first glance! looking forward to testing it!

 

First question: will iZotope SRC be back?

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AU Plugins realtime control does not work here (without realtime control AU Plugins work as supposed to).

Is this a known bug and will be fixed in a future update?

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On 4/17/2019 at 3:19 PM, damien78 said:

It is a new algorithm I've designed myself.

Damien... after replay gain, is there also Dither applied "under the hood"?

 

Bug: On my 2 computers (OSX 10.11.6) AU Plugins do not work at all.

I've got quite some plugins... but not a single one is working, regardless of manufacturer or version (old or new). Not even the system AU plugins provided by Apple do work.

All is fine in A+ 3.2.16 (and has been fine all the time in all former versions).

Any ideas?

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On 4/22/2019 at 10:33 AM, copy_of_a said:

Damien... after replay gain, is there also Dither applied "under the hood"?

 

Bug: On my 2 computers (OSX 10.11.6) AU Plugins do not work at all.

I've got quite some plugins... but not a single one is working, regardless of manufacturer or version (old or new). Not even the system AU plugins provided by Apple do work.

All is fine in A+ 3.2.16 (and has been fine all the time in all former versions).

Any ideas?

 

@damien78

Trashed all Audrivana related system files (library, prefs etc.) and started with 3.5.4 from scratch.

Audio Units do work as supposed to now, also in real time mode. So far so good...

However, I can't store or recall already existing presets (presets of AU Plugin settings that is).

 

The remote works as supposed to, too.

However, the alphabetical search option on the right side of the display is weirdly scrambled... see attachment.

 

Other than that I think A3.5.4 is solid ... and all in all a really nice update - much appreciated!

And many thanks for making this availble as an free update for existing customers.

 

Could you please adress my question from above? ->

after replay gain, is there also Dither applied "under the hood"?

... and if so, is the bitdepth selected in the preferences taken into account ("For bridge devices connected to a DAC -> 24bit instead of 32bit")?

 

 

 

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@damien78

 

Serious issue with iZotope SRC:

PCM upsampling to higher rate PCM. Audio Units enabled. After around 5 seconds of playback there's a short "jump" (incontinuity) in the music.

Issue goes away when ...

1.) playing with AU plugins in real time mode

2.) when using SoX as resampler (AU plugins work as supposed to in offline and in real time mode)

3.) disabling AU plugins

 

Also: is the sequence of processing still the same as in former versions of Audirvana?

1.) Replay Gain

2.) Upsampling

3.) AU plugins processing?

 

Many thanks!

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15 hours ago, damien78 said:

Replay Gain > signal processing (e.g. AU) > upsampling

This enables to use Audio Units not able to work with high sample rates.

In this case you should really provide Dither options after signal processing and upsampling ... so as the last step before sending the data to the DAC (dither should always be the last processing step, as you know).

Doesn't have to be an armada of dither options like HQ Player provides. But at least TPDF Dither for 16bit, 20bit, 24bit output should be available.

Otherwise I'd regard this version of Audirvana incomplete

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16 hours ago, damien78 said:

In 3.5.6 I've just released, I've added 2 commands in Audirvana menu to:

1. Raise the audio output selection popup

2. Open the audio settings page.

This will make the onboarding easier

Damien,

 

am I on your ignore list or something? I've asked twice about dithered volume in conjunction with replay gain and in my last post I've asked about Dither after DSP + SRC.

Is Audirvana the only audiophile player that does not provide Dither for HighRes PCM after DSP + SRC or am I missing something?

Previous versions also didn't provide Dither options after SRC for PCM ... but at least we could assign an AU plugin for Dither.

For DSD upsamling there are the DSD filters to choose from. How do we deal with PCM in this version? I am genuinely interested in answer...

 

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19 hours ago, jimdukey said:

How much input do you figure Damien is getting right now?

He can't hold everyone's Hand...

yeah, since 2 years or so.

I've placed a very basic question about Dither and processing in Audirvana - very easy to answer. Nothing to fix, nothing to think about - simple answer. Things that would normally be outlined in a manual.

Meanwhile one or two new updates have been released... which included usability improvements.

But hey... maybe Audirvana is now more targeted at users that favour easy GUIs over great audio quality.

I for one care about both...

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6 hours ago, Marten said:

Version 3.5 came to early as official version.

hmh... not sure. For me it worked pretty well from the very begining. Small bugs are "okay"... at least nothing I would complain about.

What is not "okay", IMHO, is to change the processing pipeline (the order of processing steps that is) without telling us.

As a long time user of Audirvana I would expect that an update doesn't change the processing order ... but I somehow felt something changed and this is why I've asked Damien. Now, with the new order of processing steps there is no way to apply Dither after upsampling (in case we use upsampling to high rate PCM) ... and we are left with truncation distortion and without any option to fix this by ourselfs (the new processing order makes it impossible to apply a Dither plugin after SRC).

Dither is such a basic (and important) feature and I really cant' believe Audirvana doesn't provide decent Dither options. Turns Audirvana from a great product into an unusable amateurish product. Well, maybe it applies Dither "under the hood" ... but by now we don't know since Damien doesn't tell us.

Luckily 3.2.16 is still running ...

 

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15 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Hi c of a - Was it simply an unconfirmed feeling, or was there something more concrete?

Hi Jud. Initially it was just a feeling.
I normally listen to music at pretty low or moderate levels. This is why I apply a kind of soft „equal loudness“ curve with EQ Plugins to balance the frequency response.
Now, plugins may sound slightly different at different sample rates.
Since I‘ve upsampled before EQing I‘ve also turned off the internal upsampling of my EQ plugin (not needed at rates from 176.4kHz and above). Well ... and somehow it sounded unfamiliar.
That could just as well have been attributed to a different sound of the new Audirvana version. However, there was also some skipping of sound a few seconds after start of playback ... and I know this from former versions when upsampling to DSD (where plugins are processed before upsampling). This is why I thought the processing order may have changed...

I‘m fine with the new processing order... I just have to throw out my Dither plugin (before SRC). But of course I then would like to apply Dither after SRC (which, IMHO, is mandatory ... and ideally I‘d like to have a choice about the bitdepth - 16, 20, 24, 32 bit).

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@damien78

 

 

Once again a question about the processing steps, please...

 

In post # 74 you are saying the order is:
1.) Effects
2.) Upsampling
3.) Volume Control / Replay Gain
(the order they appear on the audio settings page)

 

In post #575 you are saying it is:
1.) Replay Gain
2.) Effects
3.) Upsampling

 

If it‘s like you said in post#74 we could activate software volume control to enable Dither after SRC. Is this correct?

 

And if so, is Replay Gain still being processed before effects (like you said in post#575) and only the actual manual volume control is processed at the end of the chain (= post#74)?

 

Thanks!

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27 minutes ago, damien78 said:

 

With realtime AU off:

1. Polarity inversion and Replay Gain (if active)

2. AU Effects

3. Upsampling (if active)

4. SW volume control (if active)

 

With realtime AU on:

1. Polarity inversion and Replay Gain (if active)

2. Upsampling

3. AU Effects

4. SW Volume control (if active)

 

Now all stars allign - makes perfectly sense! Many thanks!

 

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On 5/4/2019 at 11:19 AM, copy_of_a said:

Now all stars allign - makes perfectly sense! Many thanks!

Not quite ...

 

@damien78

Back home I've tried to use software volume control - but MBit+ Dithering is gone.

So my "workaround" to apply Dither after upsampling by utilizing software based volume control obviously doesn't work.

So there is no way to apply Dither after Upsampling... except when using AU Plugins in realtime mode since this switches the processing order.

Is this correct?

 

[copy_of_a]

2 hours ago, jos said:

Indeed, doesn't exist! Hans Beekhuyzen (a well known independent hifi reviewer) already concluded that Amarra is sounding more 'wooly' than others (Pure Music, A+, ...). You could explain this as: 'a lack of high frequency definition and over abundance of low mids'.

Would agree with this - Amarra sounds processed towards a "tape" or "vinyl" -like sound (to some degree). Slightly more bass, slightly warmer, some slight shimmer at the top end. No other "bitperfect" player produces such a sound out of the box ... but all other players sound very, very close to each other in general (tiny differences aside).

However, of all the other players Audirvana is the one (or maybe was the one up to version 3.2) that may sound "harsh". Might be attributed to Audirvanas "resolution" (by that I mean its strong capabilities to resolve details, especially in the high mids). Don't know. But certainly Audirvana is prone to sound "harsh" with modern loud recordings when you don't reduce the gain (which, I assume, many useres don't do). Too, most users on this forums preferred upsampling settings that allow mirrored aliasing (imaging). Of those who used AU plugins I suspect only few users also used dedicated Dither at the end of the processing chain.

And all this together might add up and lead to the conclusion that Audirvana sounds bright.

If you strictly take care to avoid feeding your DAC with hot signals (personally I stay below -5db peaks max) and apply upsampling settings generating a reasonable amount of apodization to avoid imaging (which SoX provides by default BTW) things look much better.

... at least IMHO after using Audirvana for many years (and also using or used HQPlayer, JRiver, Roon in comparison).

 

[copy_of_a]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

 

Aloha!  What are your preferred Sox settings?

Hi DancingSea!

 

Honestly: none.

Since there is no way to apply Dither after Upsampling in the new version of Audirana (except when running AU Plugins in realtime mode) I don‘t even bother to start playing around with SoX settings (bandwidth in the range 90%-94% and linear phase seems fine for me, though).

 

Damien apparently is thinking that the Noise Floor of DACs is above 24bit (which I believe is mostly true) and therefore he thinks Dither isn‘t needed after SRC.

With the latter I certainly do not agree since equipment noise is always coloured and this is why it doesn‘t act like uniform Dither (at all frequencies). Above all: most current Plugins and SRC tools work at and output 64bit (SoX at 32bit). So when sending such high bits un-dithered to the DAC you end up with truncation (distortion) ... in the case of Audirvana 3.5 by design. This is why I do not upsample in the new Audirvana version.

 

In the meantime I have, however, batch upsampled my entire library to 88.2 kHz / 96 kHz offline and therefore disable upsampling in Audirvana (3.5). My perception of HighRes changed over time - I think 88.2 kHz and 96kHz are perfect for everything. Higher rates actually sound thinner to me (88.2 / 96 sounds somewhat beefier and snappier).

Upsampling to DSD is a different story maybe... but I‘m not a fan of the DSD upsampling in Audirvana (prefer HQPplayer for this ... but lately pretty rarely ... and if so, only when listening to classical music).

 

sorry I can‘t help you...

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47 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

I’d like to make minor EQ adjustments to DSD playback.  I do that using AU units for PCM and it sounds great. But it’s my understanding that AU’s don’t work on DSD unless its first downsampled to PCM. I prefer keeping dsd as dsd. 

 

In HQPlayer the convolution engine allows these sorts of adjustments with DSD files. So I was wondering of Audirvana allowed the same functionality?

To my knowledge only HQPlayer provides processing (gain adjustment + convolution) of DSD source files.

In any case Audirvana is not designed for such purposes... you have to resample to PCM to use AU Plugins. 

[copy_of_a]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

I believe any such processing of DSD files has to be done when they are in a multibit state

(...)

I believe HQP would have to be doing that conversion from 1-bit to multibit.

Sure! Audio processing at 1 bit would lead to incredible noise and distortion...

[copy_of_a]

21 hours ago, damien78 said:

There is no change on AU configuration between these two versions. But is there anything else that may have changed on your system? AU plug-in update?

Is it the same after a reboot?

I - kind of - have the same issue.

On my music computer - OS X 10.11.6 stripped down to run only as few processes as possible - I could edit AU plugins up to Audirvana version 3.5.11. Since I was traveling I missed some updated versions. But in 3.5.15 and 3.5.16 I can't edit AU plugins anymore.

(workaround: I keep 3.5.11 in case I want to edit AU plugins... the AU settings will hold also if you run 3.5.16).

 

But! ...: on my desktop Mac with a regular OS X 10.11.6 anything works as supposed to (AU plugins can be edited).

 

So I wonder why I can edit AU plugins on my tuned/stripped down El Capitan in Audirvana 3.5.11 - but not in 3.5.15.

On the other hand it might very well be related to my modifications to the OS X.

Anway ... something must have changed ... ? (in my case no updates to the system or the plugins I am using - only Audirvana was updated).

[copy_of_a]

5 hours ago, damien78 said:

 

I have found an issue for the offline configuration of some AU plugins. This is fixed for the 3.2.17 scheduled to be released on Monday.

great!! thanks a lot!!

[copy_of_a]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:33 PM, damien78 said:

I have found an issue for the offline configuration of some AU plugins. This is fixed for the 3.2.17 scheduled to be released on Monday.

works as supposed to on both of my computers.

many thanks for the quick fix!!

[copy_of_a]

On 10/22/2019 at 11:31 AM, damien78 said:

Be sure to have the latest Audirvana 3.5 running (e.g. 3.5.24 on the Mac).

Hi Damien.

 

Latest Audirvana (3.5.25) and the updated remote work really great on my system.

Great bug fixes and additions on the remote!

No streaming here, though, so a pretty uncomplex system.

If only you would add dither as an option (after uspamling!) even for us poor 24bit DAC users Audirvana would leave nothing to be desired 😉

[copy_of_a]

On 11/30/2019 at 6:45 AM, Vule said:

Anyone tried Sonimus sonEQ plug in ??? Opinions ?

It's simply amazing!

Sonimus makes high quality audio plugins and sonEQ is without a doubt a neat little (character-) EQ. Actually a „mixing“ EQ, not really a „mastering“ EQ.

 

However, „sonEQ“ is „amazing“ to you with respect to what exactly? The EQ section or the ‚pre-amp‘ section („Drive“)?
IMO, with „drive“ enabled even at the lowest setting the saturation and bass boost is far to prominent and coloured in an ‚audiophile’ (whatever) HiFi enviroment.
Then again... there are no rules as far as enjoyment goes. If you like it, it‘s good. That simple.

 

Me personally I’d rather use tools that are clean/transparent or only add super subtle low level saturation and glue... so pretty much EQs that are more or less suited for „mastering“.

 

Just recently one of the big boys in the hardware-emulation and circuit-modeling business released an emulation of a simple, yet very versatile and very elegant and ‚expensive‘ sounding EQ. The „RS-W2395c“.
It features Baxandall low and high shelf filters (the underlying design of the millions of tone controls found in HiFi amps) in conjunction with a flexible mid band. It‘s an emulation of a Roger Schult mixing and mastering EQ: 
https://www.rogerschult.com/w2395c_e.php?L=1

... and I think it‘s spectacular. Even more so as it‘s a freebee...
Highly recommended to anyone who want‘s a high quality software based „tone control“ within Audirvana:
https://fuseaudiolabs.com/#/pages/product?id=300965965

 

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1 hour ago, mkrzych said:

So in general, should I always upsample using SoX in 3.5? if so, in which mode: power of 2, maximum of the DAC or what and why? Mine supports 24/192 pcm at max, having also 88.2 and 176.4kHz. 

With a 24 bit DAC I wouldn‘t upsample within Audirvana.

Upsampling increases the bit depth - to 32 bit in the case of SoX (64 bit in the case of iZotope) - but Damien decided to forego making dither available after SRC in V3.5. 

Actually a pretty shocking desgin decision on behalf of Damien... IMHO

 

[copy_of_a]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

"Zero padding" is done because many DACs these days use internal 32-bit computations. I believe it makes exactly as much difference as writing 1 vs. 1.00000000.

not sure in how far this is related to my post...?

I‘m only aware of zero padding in case of increasing the bit depth.

 

Anyway: If you use a 24 bit DAC you should feed it with a technically healthy 24 bit file... not with a higher bit depth file truncated down to 24 bit.

 

[copy_of_a]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Is the 32-bit file obtained by zero padding, and the "truncation" simply to remove the zeroes?

It‘s obtained by the processing. When you apply SRC the audio gets processed at a higher word length and therefore the resulting “file“ is essentially a 32 bit file (assumed you are using SoX - it would be 64bit for iZotope).

When you use a 24 bit DAC the last 8 bits get truncated.

We don‘t have to get too technical here but can simply state that Audirvana is the only audiophile player providing DSP (SRC, AU Plugins) that does not include dither at the end of the processing chain. All other playback softwares in this league do ... for good reasons.