Lee Scoggins Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, mansr said: Does anyone else see what he accidentally said there. You're being stupid here. There is no direct comparison in this fashion between 1-bit DSD and 24-bit PCM. Too entirely different encoding methods but you know that. By the way, Bishop is also a big fan of DSD. Ralf11 and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said: You're being stupid here. There is no direct comparison in this fashion between 1-bit DSD and 24-bit PCM. Too entirely different encoding methods but you know that. Only one of us understands how DSD works, and I'm pretty sure it isn't you. esldude, Thuaveta, Ralf11 and 9 others 4 2 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Lee Scoggins Posted February 23, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, mansr said: Only one of us understands how DSD works, and I'm pretty sure it isn't you. This is one of many quotes which demonstrate how worthless your comments are here. You only serve up personal attacks and never explain in detail what your point is. There is no learning or genuine contribution to the discussion. Just snarky comments that don't advance the discussion. You are not here to make compelling arguments or present facts; you only exist here to advance a partisan anti-MQA agenda. It's tiring and a waste of bandwidth. kumakuma, Teresa, ARQuint and 5 others 2 6 Link to comment
Sonicularity Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Lee Scoggins said: You're being stupid here. There is no direct comparison in this fashion between 1-bit DSD and 24-bit PCM. Too entirely different encoding methods but you know that. By the way, Bishop is also a big fan of DSD. What could be more stupid than stating that 24/96 sounds way better than 24/48 while suggesting ridiculous confirmations by just listening with absolutely no controls to account for any egregious biases? Why are we still debating this? MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said: You're being stupid here. There is no direct comparison in this fashion between 1-bit DSD and 24-bit PCM. Too entirely different encoding methods but you know that. By the way, Bishop is also a big fan of DSD. Stupid (your word)... Explain to us Lee, how exactly is 1 bit DSD "entirely different" than 24 bit PCM? You can use your own words - no math or big tech words for you, but you have to make some sense and your words have to have some meaning. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post FredericV Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 10 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said: You're being stupid here. Please buy a mirror. Ralf11, Indydan, esldude and 1 other 1 3 Designer of the 432 EVO music server and Linux specialist Discoverer of the independent open source sox based mqa playback method with optional one cycle postringing. Link to comment
Popular Post Lee Scoggins Posted February 24, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 13 hours ago, crenca said: Stupid (your word)... Explain to us Lee, how exactly is 1 bit DSD "entirely different" than 24 bit PCM? You can use your own words - no math or big tech words for you, but you have to make some sense and your words have to have some meaning. One is pulse code modulation and one is pulse density modulation. From wikipedia: "In a PDM signal, specific amplitude values are not encoded into codewords of pulses of different weight as they would be in pulse-code modulation (PCM); rather, the relative density of the pulses corresponds to the analog signal's amplitude. The output of a 1-bit DAC is the same as the PDM encoding of the signal." Teresa, jabbr and lucretius 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 31 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said: One is pulse code modulation and one is pulse density modulation. From wikipedia: "In a PDM signal, specific amplitude values are not encoded into codewords of pulses of different weight as they would be in pulse-code modulation (PCM); rather, the relative density of the pulses corresponds to the analog signal's amplitude. The output of a 1-bit DAC is the same as the PDM encoding of the signal." So you admit that you don't understand how DSD works? esldude, Teresa and crenca 1 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post daverich4 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, mansr said: So you admit that you don't understand how DSD works? Perhaps, instead of posting one of your usual snarky one liners, you could explain to those of us like myself who don’t know how it works, exactly how it does? Teresa, MikeyFresh, crenca and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, daverich4 said: Perhaps, instead of posting one of your usual snarky one liners, you could explain to those of us like myself who don’t know how it works, exactly how it does? Sure, I'll just condense multiple volumes of maths books into a forum post. Kyhl, Ran, kumakuma and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment
Popular Post daverich4 Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 26 minutes ago, mansr said: Sure, I'll just condense multiple volumes of maths books into a forum post. Not necessary, it’s already been done for you. No “volumes of maths books“ required. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital Teresa and Lee Scoggins 2 Link to comment
crenca Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said: One is pulse code modulation and one is pulse density modulation. From wikipedia: "In a PDM signal, specific amplitude values are not encoded into codewords of pulses of different weight as they would be in pulse-code modulation (PCM); rather, the relative density of the pulses corresponds to the analog signal's amplitude. The output of a 1-bit DAC is the same as the PDM encoding of the signal." What does this mean Lee? Why is DSD is entirely different in your words? lucretius 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, daverich4 said: Perhaps, instead of posting one of your usual snarky one liners, you could explain to those of us like myself who don’t know how it works, exactly how it does? Instead of posting a lazy question, why don't you do some basic research...oh wait, I see you did. Maybe you can help out Lee: why is DSD entirely different from PCM? lucretius 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Lee Scoggins Posted February 24, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, daverich4 said: Perhaps, instead of posting one of your usual snarky one liners, you could explain to those of us like myself who don’t know how it works, exactly how it does? This is how Mansr works. He types another snarky reply that doesn't contribute to the discussion. Teresa, daverich4, Dr Tone and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted February 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, mansr said: Sure, I'll just condense multiple volumes of maths books into a forum post. Shouldn’t take more than 2 or 3 pages actually, and that is with plenty of explanatory text. Or you just link to one of the better simple starter explanations on the web, like this one... https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/wading-into-it/ Lee Scoggins, daverich4 and Teresa 1 1 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Paul R said: Shouldn’t take more than 2 or 3 pages actually, and that is with plenty of explanatory text. Sure, for someone who has already read and understood those maths volumes. Lee, quite obviously, has not. 2 hours ago, Paul R said: Or you just link to one of the better simple starter explanations on the web, like this one... https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/wading-into-it/ ROFL. Paul McGowan is the last person I'd refer to on just about any subject. His entire livelihood is built on perpetuating audiphool myths like this one. Even Bob Stuart makes more sense. esldude, Hugo9000, adamdea and 7 others 5 2 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, mansr said: Sure, for someone who has already read and understood those maths volumes. Lee, quite obviously, has not. ROFL. Paul McGowan is the last person I'd refer to on just about any subject. His entire livelihood is built on perpetuating audiphool myths like this one. Even Bob Stuart makes more sense. Wow, this is where you keep loosing me. You think that Paul didn't put together a quick and decent beginners explanation of the difference between PCM and PDM? (DSD of course, being a 1 bit two level variety of PDM.) If you do, then I suggest you look at it again. It ain't deep, but it is correct a far as it goes. If you want a little deeper, off the top of my head... DSD is the result of modulating a free running clock signal with an analog signal so that the output is a bit stream whose density is relatively proportional to the input analog signal. One of the defining differences between PCM and PDM is that in PCM, the numbers actually mean something - signal values are actually *encoded* in the values. (Pulse Code Modulation). In PDM (DSD) the values themselves are meaningless - except in relative reference to the values surrounding them. Or another way of saying that is- hook up a DSD signal to a speaker, and you have music. It's a very simple format. (Yes, I know you need a low pass filter and other things to make it sound good, and to keep from frying amplifiers and speakers because of the ultrasonic noise. ) You realize I choose McGowan specifically because he is no fan of MQA and thus I assumed he should have been non-controversial to you? Please stop assuming people don't know what they hell they are talking about simply because they disagree with you. Who kicked your can? You were not acting like this a year or so ago. -Paul Lee Scoggins and Teresa 2 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said: This is how Mansr works. He types another snarky reply that doesn't contribute to the discussion. When I explain things to my 6 year old daughter and she asks the same question 10 times, I tend to give her a snarky response. I know it's a downfall of mine, but the circumstances seem somewhat similar. KeenObserver, tmtomh, barrows and 14 others 4 3 10 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
MetalNuts Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 6 hours ago, crenca said: Instead of posting a lazy question, why don't you do some basic research...oh wait, I see you did. Maybe you can help out Lee: why is DSD entirely different from PCM? Come on guys, don't waste your time. Do you still believe that Lee will learn anything other than those MQA imprinted in his brain? 🤣 crenca 1 MetalNuts Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 9 hours ago, Paul R said: DSD is the result of modulating a free running clock signal with an analog signal so that the output is a bit stream whose density is relatively proportional to the input analog signal. One of the defining differences between PCM and PDM is that in PCM, the numbers actually mean something - signal values are actually *encoded* in the values. (Pulse Code Modulation). In PDM (DSD) the values themselves are meaningless - except in relative reference to the values surrounding them. I don't know what you've been reading, but that is not how DSD works. Although the density thing kind of works as a visualisation aid, it is just a side effect of how the signal is actually created, and it's not really accurate either. esldude, lucretius, Teresa and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Popular Post daverich4 Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: When I explain things to my 6 year old daughter and she asks the same question 10 times, I tend to give her a snarky response. I know it's a downfall of mine, but the circumstances seem somewhat similar. Except, the question hadn’t been asked ten times. I’m sure the topic of how DSD works has been brought up here in the past but I don’t remember seeing it in the 2 1/2 years I’ve been here. Lee made a statement about DSD that got the response from Mansr that Lee had no idea how DSD works. I have no idea if Lee does or not but I didn’t so I asked and got the response that I was too stupid to understand. Paul R weighed in with a link to an article by Paul McGowen explaining how DSD works and the response was that Paul McGowen was too stupid to understand. Is that really the way you respond to questions from your daughter? Telling her she’s too stupid to understand? Mansr apparently knows the answer to how DSD works but he’s not sharing. Teresa, crenca, audiobomber and 2 others 2 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, daverich4 said: Except, the question hadn’t been asked ten times. I’m sure the topic of how DSD works has been brought up here in the past but I don’t remember seeing it in the 2 1/2 years I’ve been here. Lee made a statement about DSD that got the response from Mansr that Lee had no idea how DSD works. I have no idea if Lee does or not but I didn’t so I asked and got the response that I was too stupid to understand. Paul R weighed in with a link to an article by Paul McGowen explaining how DSD works and the response was that Paul McGowen was too stupid to understand. Is that really the way you respond to questions from your daughter? Telling her she’s too stupid to understand? Mansr apparently knows the answer to how DSD works but he’s not sharing. Where did I say anyone was too stupid? All I said was that condensing all the required maths into a forum post isn't practical. If you've already studied the maths, you won't need my explanation. Ralf11, Hugo9000 and crenca 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Teresa Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 @daverich4 here is an except from Page 7 of Super Audio Compact Disc: A Technical Proposal Quote The delta-sigma digital-to-analog converter uses a negative feedback loop to accumulate the audio waveform. If the input waveform, accumulated over one sampling period, rises above the value accumulated in the negative feedback loop during previous samples, the converter outputs a digital “1.” If the waveform falls relative to the accumulated value, a digital “0” is output. As a result, full positive waveforms will be all 1s. Full negative waveforms will be all 0s. The zero point will be represented by alternating 1s and 0s. Because the instantaneous amplitude of the analog waveform is represented by the density of pulses, the method is sometimes called Pulse Density Modulation (PDM). The resulting pulse train has some remarkable properties. Like PCM digital audio, DSD is inherently resistant to the distortion, noise, wow & flutter of recording media and transmission channels. But unlike PCM, DSD “looks” quite analog. Simple inspection of the digital pulse train tells you much about the frequency and amplitude of the waveform. And digital-to-analog conversion can be as simple as running the pulse train through an analog low-pass filter! In actual practice, the Delta-Sigma pulse train is relatively noisy. Ultra-high signal-to-noise ratios as required for DSD in the audio band are achieved through 5th-order noise shaping filters. These effectively shift the noise up in frequency, out of the audio band. daverich4 and Lee Scoggins 1 1 I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums. I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past. I still love music. Teresa Link to comment
Miska Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 You get a hint of how SDM (DSD) works by checking this one out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted February 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2019 21 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said: One is pulse code modulation and one is pulse density modulation. From wikipedia: "In a PDM signal, specific amplitude values are not encoded into codewords of pulses of different weight as they would be in pulse-code modulation (PCM); rather, the relative density of the pulses corresponds to the analog signal's amplitude. The output of a 1-bit DAC is the same as the PDM encoding of the signal." thanks for expanding those acronyms, I’ve always wondered ... and the output of a DSD DAC is the DSD encoding! Who would’ve thought? Jud and lucretius 2 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
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