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Innuos Zenith Mk3 or OpticalRendu + separate server?


McNulty

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23 hours ago, vortecjr said:

“Nothing” is to strong a word. It’s my opinion that the software can matter because some can resample and some have very good algorithms. On the other hand I have measured some of the proposed network tweaks and found nothing compelling about them and when I posted my findings you guys want nothing to do with it. My network is the least optimized here and my server is an unoptimsed Synology NAS with switching supply and 5 spinning drives. My apologies, but I personally don’t need an expensive server to get stunning results. 

 

Yes I remember, but your findings (that server and PSU for the router/switch) didn’t match my own listening tests. All gear has to be good to get stunning results IMO, and that includes gear upstream of the renderer. The more revealing the rest of your system is, the more important the gear upstream will become.

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On 3/1/2019 at 1:16 PM, barrows said:

I disagree entirely with this assertion.

 

Here is an (albeit extreme) example of why:  Let's say you have a compound fracture: who do you consult to deal with the problem, a car salesman who has a hobby of giving medical advice for free, or an orthopedic surgeon, a professional, who is actually trained in his field and who charges money for his services?

 

Just because the Internet allows for anyone to post their opinion on anything does not make anyone an "expert".

Out of curiosity, who is the expert exemplified by the surgeon in your example, you or John Swenson? I ask this as to my knowledge, you are a self taught DIYer such as I am. To suggest that you are "a trained professional" and that your opinion on your own products is akin to that of a orthopedic surgeon is a VERY "extreme example" at best, and closer to to a lie than the truth. I respect you and Sonore in general, but you have waded into manufacture's waters and need to tread more lightly IMO.

 

Oh, and for the record, an organ grinding monkey is a professional too. Being paid for something(peanuts!) is no indicator of qualifications. There are some pretty tuned in folks around here, I'd not be so quick to put airs on.

 

 

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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1 hour ago, Summit said:

Yes I remember, but your findings (that server and PSU for the router/switch) didn’t match my own listening tests. All gear has to be good to get stunning results IMO, and that includes gear upstream of the renderer. The more revealing the rest of your system is, the more important the gear upstream will become.

I can only, in good faith, report the facts and I'm not going to argue your perception. Also, the facts remain the facts no matter who agrees with you. My gear is quite good IMO. The Synology NAS, AT&T fiber service and router, TrendNet switch, cables are all quite good. I'm also getting stunning results. Last night after a day of fun posting here on A.S. I turned off the lights and fired up my Signature Rendu SE with optical input for the first time. My conclusion (audiophile euphoric type expressions side) is that it's sad that people feel they need to do more than they have to get stunning results. BTW my opinion is independent of what the OP chooses as his solution.     

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43 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

There are a few things going on here I believe. Let’s look at the logic. 

 

When you isolate your hi-fi system’s data stream from its upstream components, such that no electrical noise is transmitted nor measured, but a change in upstream components has an impact on sound quality,  the conclusion is simply that the changes have nothing to do with the noise that was isolated and confirmed absent by measurements.   Claiming that no change in upstream components can have an effect due to the isolation is simply denying that other factors may be influencing SQ with absolutely no logical grounds for making that claim.  

Isolating electrical noise is not going to influence factors like jitter, crosstalk, data errors,  data distortions etc etc.  

Isolation will prevent electrical noise reaching downstream components but will do absolutely nothing for anything that modifies the actual data stream. 

Further, the components used to execute the isolation could themselves be introducing negative impacts on the SQ that are unrelated to electrical noise. 

In my experience, the more resolution I squeeze from a system, the more profound the losses due  to set-up shortcomings. Conversely, the less resolving a system, the less prone it is to reveal set-up deficiencies or changes. 

In my system I have complete electrical isolation via a wi-fi link but changing cables, power supplies and routers and modifying the vibration reaching  or produced by the upstream components all have a clear influence on SQ which obviously has nothing to do with electrical noise.   

We are not ignoring that part of things. Bit perfect playback be it original content streamed as such or content re-sampled arriving bit perfect is a prerequisite. To quote an industry colleague who works on one of the popular audio player projects, "you can't get better than bit perfect".     

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42 minutes ago, 4est said:

Out of curiosity, who is the expert exemplified by the surgeon in your example, you or John Swenson? I ask this as to my knowledge, you are a self taught DIYer such as I am. To suggest that you are "a trained professional" and that your opinion on your own products is akin to that of a orthopedic surgeon is a VERY "extreme example" at best, and closer to to a lie than the truth. I respect you and Sonore in general, but you have waded into manufacture's waters and need to tread more lightly IMO.

 

Oh, and for the record, an organ grinding monkey is a professional too. Being paid for something(peanuts!) is no indicator of qualifications. There are some pretty tuned in folks around here, I'd not be so quick to put airs on.

4est, Barrows is a technician assembling mostly pre-manufactuted boards for the Signature Rendu series. He also tests units and ships them for Sonore under contract.      

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45 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I can only, in good faith, report the facts and I'm not going to argue your perception. Also, the facts remain the facts no matter who agrees with you. My gear is quite good IMO. The Synology NAS, AT&T fiber service and router, TrendNet switch, cables are all quite good. I'm also getting stunning results. Last night after a day of fun posting here on A.S. I turned off the lights and fired up my Signature Rendu SE with optical input for the first time. My conclusion (audiophile euphoric type expressions side) is that it's sad that people feel they need to do more than they have to get stunning results. BTW my opinion is independent of what the OP chooses as his solution.     

 

What are the facts you are talking about? Is it maybe that the gear upstream of the ultraRendu matters after all, or why else would Sonore start producing stuff like the opiticalRendu and Sonore opticalModule that is meant to "block" the noise coming upstream of the renderer?

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1 minute ago, Summit said:

 

What are the facts you are talking about? Is it maybe that the gear upstream of the ultraRendu matters after all, or why else would Sonore start producing stuff like the opiticalRendu and Sonore opticalModule that is meant to "block" the noise coming upstream of the renderer?

I have conducted a series of tests based on some of the network tweaks proposed here on CA. The Rendu series is meant to be a remote output for streaming. These units are optically isolated from the network and used for bit perfect playback. So we have 100% galvanic isolation and no re-sampling on board as the design parameters. The opticalModule is a natural accessory for the opticalRendu being that people need to convert cable Ethernet to optical Ethernet and we want to guarantee 100% compatibility. The opticalModule is in pre-production so I'm using a TrendNet switch to convert cable Ethernet to optical Ethernet at the moment. We don't expect everyone to need a switch so the opticalModule is a simple way to do the same convention.

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2 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I have conducted a series of tests based on some of the network tweaks proposed here on CA. The Rendu series is meant to be a remote output for streaming. These units are optically isolated from the network and used for bit perfect playback. So we have 100% galvanic isolation and no re-sampling on board as the design parameters. The opticalModule is a natural accessory for the opticalRendu being that people need to convert cable Ethernet to optical Ethernet and we want to guarantee 100% compatibility. The opticalModule is in pre-production so I'm using a TrendNet switch to convert cable Ethernet to optical Ethernet at the moment. We don't expect everyone to need a switch so the opticalModule is a simple way to do the same convention.

 

I repeat, what are the facts you are talking about?

 

You may believe that the constant arguing and promoting of the tech you are selling is good for business, I think not.

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8 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

I repeat, what are the facts you are talking about?

 

You may believe that the constant arguing and promoting of the tech you are selling is good for business, I think not.

For example a linear supply on a switch made no change at the output of the DAC. Im providing an alternative view based on my gear as it should be. 

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1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

For example a linear supply on a switch made no change at the output of the DAC. 

 

Can you elaborate further?

No measured change at the output of the DAC?

What about listening through speakers/HP?

Thanks

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

For example a linear supply on a switch made no change at the output of the DAC. Im providing an alternative view based on my gear as it should be. 

 

That you didn’t measure any difference on the output of your DAC doesn’t qualify as “facts” for that switches, servers and their PSU has an impact on SQ, or not. You didn’t even show the measurement, just said it was no difference. I don’t have the time to explain all the thing you need to do correct to get reliable measurements, but there are many books and article that you can read.  

 

If it was a fact what you’re claiming the EtherREGEN for example wouldn’t make any difference.

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3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

We are not ignoring that part of things. Bit perfect playback be it original content streamed as such or content re-sampled arriving bit perfect is a prerequisite. To quote an industry colleague who works on one of the popular audio player projects, "you can't get better than bit perfect".     

Would that be ‘Bit Perfect’ with 20ns of random jitter or ‘Bit Perfect’ with 1ps?  Both would be Bit Perfect as far as I know, but one would sound a lot different to the other without some reclocking.  

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3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

My gear is quite good IMO. The Synology NAS, AT&T fiber service and router, TrendNet switch, cables are all quite good. I'm also getting stunning results.

I abhor system snobbishness but looking at this list of components I would hope you could at least entertain the possibility that this system is actually letting a lot of noise of various types through and therefore affecting your conclusions about what each component does or doesn't do. Each of these components could be replaced/upgraded/optimized in many ways along the lines of what many people here have been doing and posting results about. Regardless of whether you are getting "stunning" results. I am glad your new optical rendu has brought you that level of satisfaction, but all improvements are relative to where you started.

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

My conclusion (audiophile euphoric type expressions side) is that it's sad that people feel they need to do more than they have to get stunning results.

Now here you really start to tread on thin ice. As one of the horde of people here and on all the various audio fora who continually strive to "do more than they have to" to optimize their playback chains, I'd like to point at the no one would be buying any of your products if we didn't fall into this category. Just because you have arrived at a place where you are satisfied with your sound (without going into the ethical issue of the fact that this involves the latest product you are about to bring to market!), this does not make anyone else "sad" for pushing further and staying tuned in to the latest developments from other corners. Many an audio product manufacturer has gone done the rabbit hole of extolling their product as end game, only to be eclipsed by the next "endgame" product - and the next and the next... Just be careful -- we sad people most likely make up a massive part of your clientele!!!

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

BTW my opinion is independent of what the OP chooses as his solution.     

But it's not at all, is it? You make the very product he is considering and have just unreservedly endorsed it here AND you have just called anyone "sad" who feels the need to look elsewhere. There are no independent opinions when you are a manufacturer, sorry.

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

For example a linear supply on a switch made no change at the output of the DAC

And yet when I swap out the LPS 1.2 powering my SOtM switch for an sBooster 12V, a SOtM sPS-500, a HDPlex 200W, or a battery pack, I got four very different sounds coming through my headphones. And you want to know why? Because the end of the the playback chain in ANY system is NOT a scope or piece of software measuring a signal - it is a pair of HUMAN EARS. A robot may "hear" no change in the output of a DAC, but a human being does. Rather than this being some unfortunate subjective artifact that must be thrown out in order for technical conclusions to hold, it is the ESSENCE of audio. The human ear is arguably the most important "component" in the playback chain. Removing it from your analysis is like removing speakers or headphones from a system and then trying ti convince someone of the purity and beauty of your signal by showing them a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper. Trust me this is the best sound you will ever hear. Wait, did I say hear? I meant see... I mean -- just look at the numbers...  In other words, instead of calling measurements "facts" and ignoring all other data, you need to take my conclusions - and those of countless others here - as facts also, facts that must be explained, not discarded. Otherwise you are just looking at one type of "fact" over another. And we know where that leads in our current political environment...

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19 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

No I did not, but I did try the ISO Regen between Zenith and my DAC.  While the IR did bring a significant improvement to the mR 1.4, it didn’t bring any discernible improvements to the Zenith.  Given the quality of the USB signal out of the Zenith, I can’t imagine there’d be a benefit from throwing the mR back into the mix.

Thank you so much. I guess that someone else will test and report back.

 

Jorge

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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@vortecjr : I'm trying to stay neutral in the discussions based on my limited own experience with the subject at hand, so the following question isn't meant to pick a side: I was wondering if the music software used could be an explanation for the differences between the outcome of your measurements and tests and the experiences of others. I understand Roon can be much more demanding for a server (and possibly the network) than Squeezelite or MPD/DLNA. Were your findings consistent between the various music software options?

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On 3/1/2019 at 7:42 AM, barrows said:

This supply features a small LC input filter, followed by a very low noise/leakage current SMPS, followed by a RC filter, and then an ultra low noise/output impedance discrete regulator.

 

Of course the key here is the ultra low noise/output impedance regulator - but out of interest only, which low noise/leakage current SMPS are you using here?


Can you share make and model?

 

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@Em2016,  Vigortronix.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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21 hours ago, vortecjr said:

4est, Barrows is a technician assembling mostly pre-manufactuted boards for the Signature Rendu series. He also tests units and ships them for Sonore under contract.      

This is precisely my point!

 

I'll skip the defamation of likening someone to a used car salesman, but a surgeon is a degree'd professional with a license. They are often specialists as well. To suggest that he is that (an RF engineer) and just "knows", whilst the other poster is a car salesman is simply wrong IMO. It's your business and reputation Jesus, but it is no surprise to me that he got some flak. I am not even saying that I disagree, but I do not feel that a manufacture's rep should wade in in this manner on a product of their employer's. You and Superdad/Alex) tend to be pretty good at taking a punch and remaining professionally detached. Kudos!

 

The organ grinding monkey bit was over the top. I am sorry about that.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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20 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Can you elaborate further?

No measured change at the output of the DAC?

What about listening through speakers/HP?

Thanks

 

Matt

I was using a DAC that is really sensitive to it's input because it's powered 100% by the Rendu and using it's unbalanced output which doesn't inherently clean up noise. No change at the output of the DAC. Listening via speakers. 

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20 hours ago, Summit said:

 

That you didn’t measure any difference on the output of your DAC doesn’t qualify as “facts” for that switches, servers and their PSU has an impact on SQ, or not. You didn’t even show the measurement, just said it was no difference. I don’t have the time to explain all the thing you need to do correct to get reliable measurements, but there are many books and article that you can read.  

 

If it was a fact what you’re claiming the EtherREGEN for example wouldn’t make any difference.

I have actually done the tests here with my analyzer so yes don't waste your time. I'm presenting the facts mostly for the benefit of others. If any of this is wasted on you that is fine by me.

 

I don't make the EtherRegen so you really need to talk to Alex about it. However, it will also have 100% galvanic isolation when used via it's SFP port and low noise oscillator and clean power circuits. I have spoken with John at length multiple times about his hypothesis regarding the phase noise from system to system. First of all, we are talking about something incredibly difficult to measure requiring highly specialized gear to detect it's presence. FYI John has not finalized making the gear or started the measurements. I'm open to the idea that he will find something and we will utilize it when appropriate. John, also hypothesizes that the phase noise signature decays through each device. In that line of thinking a Rendu with it's low noise oscillators and clean power circuits is a source for the proposed decay. The opticalModule and EtherRegen would be another. On the scale of phase noise to power supply the power supply wins on important measurable affects at the output of the DAC every time.     

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17 hours ago, McNulty said:

@vortecjr : I'm trying to stay neutral in the discussions based on my limited own experience with the subject at hand, so the following question isn't meant to pick a side: I was wondering if the music software used could be an explanation for the differences between the outcome of your measurements and tests and the experiences of others. I understand Roon can be much more demanding for a server (and possibly the network) than Squeezelite or MPD/DLNA. Were your findings consistent between the various music software options?

I have not really studied this. However, it is when it's indexing your content for sure, but so is up-sampling via HQ Player which requires much more processing. Also streaming high sample rate native DSD is also relatively demanding on the network without I'll affect. Again I have not really studied this, but if the results were not consistent from player to player then the stream is not bit perfect. 

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45 minutes ago, 4est said:

This is precisely my point!

 

I'll skip the defamation of likening someone to a used car salesman, but a surgeon is a degree'd professional with a license. They are often specialists as well. To suggest that he is that (an RF engineer) and just "knows", whilst the other poster is a car salesman is simply wrong IMO. It's your business and reputation Jesus, but it is no surprise to me that he got some flak. I am not even saying that I disagree, but I do not feel that a manufacture's rep should wade in in this manner on a product of their employer's. You and Superdad/Alex) tend to be pretty good at taking a punch and remaining professionally detached. Kudos!

 

The organ grinding monkey bit was over the top. I am sorry about that.

As discussed above Barrows is self employed and not an employee of Sonore. As such, Barrows is responsible for his content and if you have an issue with it or advise for him PM him.  

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22 hours ago, incus said:

I abhor system snobbishness but looking at this list of components I would hope you could at least entertain the possibility that this system is actually letting a lot of noise of various types through and therefore affecting your conclusions about what each component does or doesn't do. Each of these components could be replaced/upgraded/optimized in many ways along the lines of what many people here have been doing and posting results about. Regardless of whether you are getting "stunning" results. I am glad your new optical rendu has brought you that level of satisfaction, but all improvements are relative to where you started.

Now here you really start to tread on thin ice. As one of the horde of people here and on all the various audio fora who continually strive to "do more than they have to" to optimize their playback chains, I'd like to point at the no one would be buying any of your products if we didn't fall into this category. Just because you have arrived at a place where you are satisfied with your sound (without going into the ethical issue of the fact that this involves the latest product you are about to bring to market!), this does not make anyone else "sad" for pushing further and staying tuned in to the latest developments from other corners. Many an audio product manufacturer has gone done the rabbit hole of extolling their product as end game, only to be eclipsed by the next "endgame" product - and the next and the next... Just be careful -- we sad people most likely make up a massive part of your clientele!!!

But it's not at all, is it? You make the very product he is considering and have just unreservedly endorsed it here AND you have just called anyone "sad" who feels the need to look elsewhere. There are no independent opinions when you are a manufacturer, sorry.

And yet when I swap out the LPS 1.2 powering my SOtM switch for an sBooster 12V, a SOtM sPS-500, a HDPlex 200W, or a battery pack, I got four very different sounds coming through my headphones. And you want to know why? Because the end of the the playback chain in ANY system is NOT a scope or piece of software measuring a signal - it is a pair of HUMAN EARS. A robot may "hear" no change in the output of a DAC, but a human being does. Rather than this being some unfortunate subjective artifact that must be thrown out in order for technical conclusions to hold, it is the ESSENCE of audio. The human ear is arguably the most important "component" in the playback chain. Removing it from your analysis is like removing speakers or headphones from a system and then trying ti convince someone of the purity and beauty of your signal by showing them a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper. Trust me this is the best sound you will ever hear. Wait, did I say hear? I meant see... I mean -- just look at the numbers...  In other words, instead of calling measurements "facts" and ignoring all other data, you need to take my conclusions - and those of countless others here - as facts also, facts that must be explained, not discarded. Otherwise you are just looking at one type of "fact" over another. And we know where that leads in our current political environment...

I’m open to a lot of stuff and thus the reason for testing some of the proposed solutions. 

 

No need to take the comment personally as I was referring to the situation as a whole. Understand that we make products that have a specific intent. Our intent is that you use your computer for emails, forum posting, and streaming. In addition, I don't promote people spending time and money upgrading things that don't need upgrading. Also, I have never used the word “endgame” to describe Sonore products. We have used the general term “endpoint” to distinguish the Rendu from a server. I used the word “independent” above to suggest that upgrading things that don’t need upgrading applies to my competitors gear as well. 

 

If you can here the difference between various PSs on an endpoint or server then there might be a bases for it, but not on a switch. The issue with relying on your ears is expectaional bios, preference, etc. mixed into your perception. The analyzer doesn’t have these human traits and is much more sensitive than your ears. 

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I wasn't quoting you with 'endgame' but you more than implied that the opticalRendu is all that someone really needs right now because other 'upgrades' are not really worth it.  If that's not really what you meant then I would be careful with comments like the 'sad' comment. And I don't take it personally at all - just unpacking your  words -- with an admonishment to be a little more careful how you phrase things.

 

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

If you can here the difference between various PSs on an endpoint or server then there might be a bases for it, but not on a switch.

 

What can I say about this? You say I can't possibly hear different power supplies on my switches and yet I do. Did another A/B over the weekend between Uptone LPS1.2 and SOtM sPS-500 on my SOtM switch and the difference is apparent and repeatable, even blind. I don't know what else to say except come on over and hear for yourself... But in the meantime I would suggest you avoid categorical statements such as "but not on a switch." Really? Unless you've tested them all, I see no basis for this statement...

 

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

. The issue with relying on your ears is expectaional bios, preference, etc. mixed into your perception. The analyzer doesn’t have these human traits and is much more sensitive than your ears.  

 

Boy does that argument get old! It's the cudgel the objectivists always bring out in the 15th round against the subjectivists. BAM. Take that! My machine slays your ears!! You're just hearing things! Problem is that what your 'analyzer' (is that really the name?) is 'analyzing' is not music. It's something else entirely. Electricity in various forms. That's the only language it knows. Music is sound waves. Music is those analogue sound waves tickling parts of the inner ear (including the incus!) and in turn lighting up parts of the brain through neural pathways. That is where music is made. And we are talking about music, no? Your machines are sensitive, great, but they are shut out from this entire realm of actual musical reproduction. You may think this pseudo-poetic claptrap but it gets to the heart of this endless debate. You mistrust ears, you mistrust brains - BUT THAT IS WHERE THE MUSIC HAPPENS.

 

And when you wield this cudgel, you shut out people like me who are trying to respond to the OP with our own experiences with the components in question. I will leave this debate now because it never goes anywhere - only with one final shot over the bow: quality of modem matters, digital cable matters, switch matters, server matters, endpoint matters - it all matters with or without optical, galvanic and/or any other kind of isolation. Those are my findings, measured at the output... of my brain...

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