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Innuos Zenith Mk3 or OpticalRendu + separate server?


McNulty

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On 5/19/2019 at 5:31 PM, Blackmorec said:

Essentially what this customisation has achieved is the following:

1. Removed all high frequency SMPS noise

2. Removed the sonic characteristics of an ultra-cheap SMPS and replaced with high quality Sean Jacob’s DC3 sonic characteristics

3. Removed the LF noise and vibration coming from 230V 50Hz

4. Removed the AC - DC conversion noise and vibration

5. Isolated the mechanical vibration coming from the wall 

6. Removed the pollution that the 5V SMPS injects into mains and radiates into nearby cables and components

7. Removed several cheap connectors from the DC line 

8. Because the SMPS is gone, the DC3 can now be powered from my dedicated mains supplies

9 The DC3 can be placed on anti-vibration mini-racks for further isolation.

10 I can use a CHC Black IEC or any other power cable for further improvement 

 

Hi Blackmorec. Thank you very much for sharing details info on how to implement good wifi networking for audio streaming. It helps me a lot to grasp the technical details how to do it. Much appreciated.

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14 hours ago, barrows said:

 

Oh, I am sorry, I am not referring to streaming from the Internet, that would be another topic for me-I only play locally stored files.

My god after all this time... What a cluster... The entire conversation was about streaming via Internet... oi...

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42 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

 

Hi Blackmorec. Thank you very much for sharing details info on how to implement good wifi networking for audio streaming. It helps me a lot to grasp the technical details how to do it. Much appreciated.

You’re very welcome. I will be the first to admit that we probably can’t explain in physical terms precisely all that is going on that allows vibration control, better cable isolation and transmission and improved power supplies on the network to improve sound quality. Just know that at this point in remote digital streaming, they still make a very big, positive difference to how streamed music sounds. Maybe sometime in the future they won’t matter, but we’re not there yet. 

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5 hours ago, bobfa said:

Paul,

 

Since you quoted me I will outline a couple of things. I do not know what the guy in the video sells, it does not impact my thoughts here.  I agree that there is stuff out there that is way over priced.  Value is hard to determine.

 

In my opinion the video was put out to create noise and draw attention to the author. It may have been done with some spite?  I do not know.  I feel that it is short sighted to do things like that.   

3

 

Yes, I can definitely see that. Unfortunately, his having a bad attitude and perhaps, ulterior motives does not make what he pointed out untrue. 

 

 

Quote

I do not know what you found in your research, but like the video it appears to hand wave over the whole package of running a company and building a “system”.   I know what it takes; I run my own company and I have worked elsewhere  that build systems.  As one example I worked at Motorola where we built specialized computer systems for our customers.  It is not just buying a bunch of hardware from China and boxing it up for sale.  A 2 to 1 price vs cost is a short trip to bankruptcy. 

2

 

While I respect your experience, I also worked for decades in the Engineering/Software Engineering World. If this was really an engineering exercise, then yes, I would agree with you. 

 

But it is not. It is merely an import business with - possibly - some minor assembly. I would not even say that much, as once specced, the factories will assemble and load the devices for you much more economically than you or I could do it here. 

 

That "2 to 1" price is for an assembled item, which I assume, changes your mathematics. Or at least, you should reconsider your math. Costs are storage and shipping, and time value for money while things are in shipment. And of course, there are ways to control that too. 

 

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I have built my own server and endpoint and they are documented here.  (see my “from 0 to” threads).   The cost for that hardware is a lot higher even if purchased at wholesale.  My labor is “free to me” not others.  The software in my system is not free and I am paying, through licensing for that. There is a lot more.  How do you account for the research labor time or experience.   My rough estimate of my hardware purchases is around $7000 (retail) and software is around $1100 (retail).  My time is not included.

1

 

My engineering experience leads me to believe that the server part of the equation, as long as it is sufficently powerful, has very little or no effect on the sound at an endpoint. I have not in my personal experience seen any situation where it actually has. Therefore, servers dedicated to music here are generally off the shelf. In the case of the current server, it is a 2012 i5 Mac that just will not die. (I want to replace with a new one with USB-C.) 

 

I have moved the storage from a fibre connected SAN to local USB connected RAID devices, and am quite pleased with the result. It is far cheaper to expand storage as needed. Being as it is only connected to the server, and the server is not connected to any DACs directly, there is no impact on the sound quality. Server software is Roon, and endpoints vary from a microRendu to a brand new Mac Mini, to SBCs setup with Windows and Linux.  None of which was terribly complex to do, and takes advantage of a home wireless network instead of riding on a VLAN these days. Very convienent, sounds great. Total cost for dedicated music streaming hardware/software, somewhere around $5400. That does not include software licenses not being used, such as for Amarra, repurposed Windows Licenses, or computers like the Mac Mini on this desktop that are used for other purposes. 

 

 

Quote

You have posted over 13000 items on the forum, I assume that you care.  If you can build, ship and support a product like Innous or the fancy chair, please do so and help the rest of us out.  Get us a better product for less.  Teach us how to do that.  Add to the value, PLEASE!

 

What does the number of posts against my name have to do with anything? I have no idea why you would bring that up. You have 500+ post in 16 months, give yourself a decade and then see where you are.  I get the strong impression you are trying to say your posts are superior, and perhaps they are. Most of mine are "pub chat" with friends about our shared hobby. You may be trying to jumpstart a writing career. If so, I wish you the best, and hope it goes well for you. 

 

As for me building and distributing that, why would I?  I just did the research to find out the facts. If someone wants to spend that money, great. I am sure they will be happy with their purchase and enjoy the music from it for a good long while.  I am not trying to protect them from making a mistake, because one man's mistake is another man's perfect choice.

 

But it sure doesn't hurt for people to take a second look at the facts of hardware like that, and know what they are buying with their eyes wide open. 

 

The sellers of this device are not manufacturing the device. At the most, they might be assembling it, but I seriously doubt they would even be doing that, when having it done at the factory is so very cost effective.  And as I pointed out, that changes the mathematics involved drastically. 

 

Let me point out we have several well run little companies here that sell products at least as good, and I believe very much superior to this thing.  Let's just consider Sonore and Small Green Computers.  

 

From SGC, the rough equivalent of that device would be the MicroJukeBox .  This sells, with a 1TB SSD, for $925.  

 

Stepping up to the cost range of the Innous (i.e. $4200), you can have the far superior sonicTransporter AP i7 4TB bundled with an UltraRendu .  For $3,695.  When I say far superior, I am saying a much better processor, more memory, more storage space, a much better USB endpoint in the UltraRendu. 

 

These are both from small, successful companies, putting out top-flight Audiophile class products, and doing so at a price that allows them to survive and thrive. And no, neither of those choices have the same cheap COTS components that were shown in the Innous. 

 

So there is literally no need for another competitor, these guys, and a few others have it handled just fine. And if someone wants a machine perfected to their own vision, it is not at all difficult to do what you did and buy parts to put together. 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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5 hours ago, barrows said:

I would also add parts inventory costs: the better parts one specs in their product, the higher the costs are of keeping those parts in stock, this ties up capitol, and for many companies requires operating on loans, so debt management and interest payments becomes another hidden cost.  This why, even in very very, very expensive products, you often do not see the very best parts (like bulk foil resistors, for example).

 

So true. :)

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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46 minutes ago, Paul R said:

My engineering experience leads me to believe that the server part of the equation, as long as it is sufficently powerful, has very little or no effect on the sound at an endpoint

But what you need here is not engineering experience - you need LISTENING experience. And until you do, this is pure conjecture contradicted by many many MANY server users/buyers/builders here on these fora and elsewhere in the computer audio/digital playback world.

 

50 minutes ago, Paul R said:

When I say far superior, I am saying a much better processor, more memory, more storage space, a much better USB endpoint in the UltraRendu. 

This may be the case but this has nothing to do with superior SOUND QUALITY, which is what buyers of the Innuos are after, after all.

 

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And by the way, streaming music directly from my SOtM server into my DAC absolutely smokes the SGC i7 I was using before even though that server's specs are far "inferior" to the SGC machine's. Not apples to apples, I know, because SOtM includes their USB card in there, which is not off the shelf, but still - until you listen, you cannot say...

 

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46 minutes ago, Paul R said:

So there is literally no need for another competitor, these guys, and a few others have it handled just fine. And if someone wants a machine perfected to their own vision, it is not at all difficult to do what you did and buy parts to put together. 

Sorry if you mis-understood my mentions.  Very Very few people have the desire or skills to build, setup , install a many of these systems.  Let alone understand what a SAN (Storage Area Network ). Is

 

I am sorry that you mis-interpreted what i wast talking about.  I intend no harm no foul.  You have been here a long time.  and You appear to CARE.  That is GREAT.  Please keep that up.   

 

I can only comment on what I have heard.  I have owned two models of Sonic Transporters, a microrendu and and UltraRendu,  and the SOTM trifecta.  They have all been moved along as I try for whatever I am looking for in sound quality.    The engineer in me says that the server should not make a difference, but to my ears it does.  If you are in the Chicago area some time I would love to have you listen to what I am hearing.  

 

I agree that Innous has servers that are more expensive than the gear from Small Green Computer and Sonore.  I really do not know if they sound better.  I have not had Innous  gear in my system as of yet.  As I said I cannot calculate  value to the user and I cannot calculate the costs of doing buisness for any of these companies.  I know that my business could not do what Andrew or Jesus do for the prices they sell gear for.  There is a LOT of value there.

 

 

I want to agree to disagree that there is not more room for folks to build digital music playback gear.  I feel there is.  There is so much more we can improve it is WONDERFUL to see this segment grow.

 

So with apologies to you for my words that may have offended.  None was intended.  Sometimes the written word does not convey meaning well.  

 

Bob

 

PS can you  show us what you found, the suppliers, costs. etc.  It is of interest.  Where to buy and if you have the time how to buy>. If you are so inclined setup a group buy???  This sounds a little like the CAPS system from a few years ago.

 

 

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1 hour ago, incus said:

But what you need here is not engineering experience - you need LISTENING experience. And until you do, this is pure conjecture contradicted by many many MANY server users/buyers/builders here on these fora and elsewhere in the computer audio/digital playback world.

 

This may be the case but this has nothing to do with superior SOUND QUALITY, which is what buyers of the Innuos are after, after all.

 

 

Apologies if I gave the impression that listening was not important. I have listened quite a lot, sometimes finding what I expect, but most often, finding something different. (How the heck can a USB cable ever made a difference in the sound? But the cussed thing sometimes does... !) 

 

Here's the thing, if you find that something works for you- go for it! Youc an even change your mind later. This is a hobby, not life or death science. :)

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Sorry if you mis-understood my mentions.  Very Very few people have the desire or skills to build, setup , install a many of these systems.  Let alone understand what a SAN (Storage Area Network ). Is

 

I am sorry that you mis-interpreted what i wast talking about.  I intend no harm no foul.  You have been here a long time.  and You appear to CARE.  That is GREAT.  Please keep that up.   

6

 

No worries, probably me being too sensitive anyway, and I sometimes am a little too direct. Apologies back and let's start over. ;)

 

 

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I can only comment on what I have heard.  I have owned two models of Sonic Transporters, a microrendu and and UltraRendu,  and the SOTM trifecta.  They have all been moved along as I try for whatever I am looking for in sound quality.    The engineer in me says that the server should not make a difference, but to my ears it does.  If you are in the Chicago area some time I would love to have you listen to what I am hearing.  

3

 

This is an incredibly interesting area for me, but perhaps one I am locked out of.

 

I hear clear differences from almost every player I listen to - but have not heard differences from servers. It may be some form of self expectation bias, I am not sure.

 

I can't hear changes based upon RAM in a machine either, but I know people who say they can, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. Also, I am a bit of a luddite in that Ethernet cables don't make a difference in the sound to me. Ethernet vs. Fiber Channel vs Wireless, yes - clear differences. But between two ethernet cables? Nope. 

 

In other words, I am a bit limited by what differences I can and cannot hear.  I also have not found a mechanism to explain why a storage unit on a server could make a difference in the sound, but there are people whose opinions I respect that say they can hear a difference. 

 

For those folks, I think building their own server is the only reasonable path, at least if they want to retain their sanity or bank balance. :)

 

 

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I agree that Innous has servers that are more expensive than the gear from Small Green Computer and Sonore.  I really do not know if they sound better.  I have not had Innous  gear in my system as of yet.  As I said I cannot calculate  value to the user and I cannot calculate the costs of doing buisness for any of these companies.  I know that my business could not do what Andrew or Jesus do for the prices they sell gear for.  There is a LOT of value there.

7

 

Well, certainly we agree there! I should say I have not heard one either, but based upon the components, the probability is very low it would sound as good as one the SGC or Sonore units. Perhaps for the same reasons C.A.P.S. machines always seemed to sound better than the other players. 

 

It is possible, and I am sure the people who buy them like them. A lot!

 

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

 

I want to agree to disagree that there is not more room for folks to build digital music playback gear.  I feel there is.  There is so much more we can improve it is WONDERFUL to see this segment grow.

 

So with apologies to you for my words that may have offended.  None was intended.  Sometimes the written word does not convey meaning well.  

 

Bob

 

 

Well, there is something to think about there. I could easily be wrong I suppose.  There are always more things to be found and explored in this hobby than you can shake a stick at. 

 

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

PS can you  show us what you found, the suppliers, costs. etc.  It is of interest.  Where to buy and if you have the time how to buy>. If you are so inclined setup a group buy???  This sounds a little like the CAPS system from a few years ago.

 

 

3

I suppose if you guys really wish - it is just a wee bit of Alibaba magic, and then dealing with the very well  trained sales agents. 

 

To be honest, I would feel like I was pushing junk though, and really don't want to. 

 

I am investigating some Chi-Fi gear right now though. In fact, a small tubed amp just showed up from DHL. Perhaps I can write that up a bit and share it, and if anyone is interested, we can certainly do a group buy. 

 

 

-Paul 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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7 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

I did not. But I owned an ultraRendu for a long time and had a Innuos Zenith MK3 in my system. The Zenith (at 4 times the price of the ultraRendu with LPS) sounded a lot better in my system. Did it sound 4 times better? No. But maybe 2 :). It was a significant difference and an eye opener how important the source is. Never had the optical rendu, so I can't comment on that. The Innous servers sound very good as standalone servers. I wonder if installing Euphony on them would be a big improvement over their InnuOS.

Thank you so much. Quite helpful. Kind regards, Jorge

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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42 minutes ago, Paul R said:

I am investigating some Chi-Fi gear right now though. In fact, a small tubed amp just showed up from DHL. Perhaps I can write that up a bit and share it, and if anyone is interested, we can certainly do a group buy. 

The folks over at Headd-fi have been chasing some really interesting amps and stuff from small vendors in China.  I have heard some great reviews.  I am really happy with my Schiit LYR3.  

 

Another area of nervosa.  Tube Rolling...  

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14 minutes ago, bobfa said:

The folks over at Headd-fi have been chasing some really interesting amps and stuff from small vendors in China.  I have heard some great reviews.  I am really happy with my Schiit LYR3.  

 

Another area of nervosa.  Tube Rolling...  

 

Yep, I am really allergic to tubes, but Jason and a few other people got me thinking... maybe I should give it another chance. And it is fun to play with. :)

 

-Paul 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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  • 3 weeks later...

If I can pile on the bandwagon WRT Innuos vs. rendu what might be an interesting comparison is the ultrarendu with LPS1.2 versus Innuos Zenith Mk II. Any comparisons out there?

4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz |  TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits |  4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room

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3 hours ago, sb6 said:

If I can pile on the bandwagon WRT Innuos vs. rendu what might be an interesting comparison is the ultrarendu with LPS1.2 versus Innuos Zenith Mk II. Any comparisons out there?

I've had both a Zenith SE Mk II and an LPS-1.2/UltraRendu.  The SE sounded much, much better.  No critical listening required for that conclusion, it's immediately apparent.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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Thanks for the assessment rickca. Considering the Zenith SE Mk II cost $6k+ that makes perfect sense. I was also wondering how about the urendu + LPS 1.2 versus the regular Zenith Mk II at ~$3K which is much closer in price to ur/LPS1.2.

4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz |  TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits |  4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room

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Thanks Nenon and kennyb123.

4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz |  TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits |  4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room

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I concur, the Zenith is magic. Mine is a Mk2 BTW. I can only imagine what the Mk 3 and Statement can do. Its being used as a core with my endpoint being the soTm Sms-200ultra Neo. I sounds wonderful with or without the soTm. Its preference I guess, with the soTm it's got a bit a bit more density which I prefer. 

 

Its also such a joy to use. The UI is so easy my granny could sort it out if she had been arnd. RIP granny.

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Great feedback guys, thanks.

4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz |  TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits |  4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room

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