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Innuos Zenith Mk3 or OpticalRendu + separate server?


McNulty

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Let me try to illustrate that in a simple way.

Imagine your Internet connection is dropping packets. A lot of packets. Let's say 20% of the traffic. You are streaming Tidal. You will clearly hear degradation in sound, if it is even streaming. There is nothing your DAC can do to fix the problem.

Okay, now let's look at a situation when your network is not dropping any packets. Fine - most network devices can deliver data from point A to point B without any packet lost. No problem there.

But let's look at a micro level here - when your network devices convert electrical signal to digital (Ethernet frames) they have to address jitter problems just like our DAC does. We use fancy oscillators on our DACs, but home network devices use crappy oscillators, crappy power, etc. At a microlevel, I am speculating that something similar to the dropping Internet traffic is happening here. The Ethernet PHY does not report what recoveries it does as long as it is within the specs. That's why we don't see any errors in our network. But those specs are quite large if our brain can detect picoseconds. And again there is nothing that the DAC can do to fix such upstream problem with Ethernet packets.

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12 minutes ago, barrows said:

 I would guess (please correct me if I am wrong about this) that latencies from an Internet streamed file would be orders of magnitude greater than that for locally stored files considering how many Ethernet switches and the like must be involved from the path of the server to one's home.

 

It's not the overall latency that takes effect here. You can't beat physics, and if you are streaming from the other end of the world, that data needs to travel half the planet. It's the delta latency between the packets that matters. This is similar to the clock in audio - we don't need the best oscillator that would work best over many years of time. We need one that is as accurate as possible over a very short of time.

 

How do we take care of the delta of latency between packets? There are two ways.

1. Use devices that are very precised and don't introduce it. Kind of hard to achieve for Internet delivery; or

2. Use buffers.

All Internet backbone routers have deep buffers. They are needed to be able to handle quick bursts of traffic exceeding the speed of their physical link. So these deltas get smoothed by the major Internet backbone devices. They become a problem when the data gets close to our home and we start using crappy home network devices.

Remember my explanation why two SOTM switches improve the quality? The more devices the traffic travels through the smoother those time gaps (deltas) become. The problem is that the more devices you add, the more problems you can introduce too :) (if they are not well designed).

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6 minutes ago, Nenon said:

I am speculating that something similar to the dropping Internet traffic is happening here

This speculation sounds like you are talking about a loss of data, as there is no timing information here relevant to audio playback, the only possible thing is data loss.  But, if there was data loss, it would audible as either an actual dropout, or a small  "tic" sound, as USB audio has no mechanism which corrects for data loss-there is no "interpretive" aspect to USB audio.  Those familiar with early days of USB audio, before async, will be familiar with these types of problems.  This type of data loss would not result in a general type of audio degradation (say, less 'air" or "presence" or any other general audio quality description), it would only result in a dropout or 'tic" sound.

 

Additionally, if this is actually something which happens, I suspect the ramifications for audio production would be extreme. 

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15 minutes ago, barrows said:

There is no explanation here as to how this would be possible.  What are you proposing is the actual mechanism for any latencies in Ethernet effecting the output of the DAC?  As long as the USB interface gets the complete data, it is then clocked out in time as per the local clock, and no latency on the Ethernet side has any effect on this.

And yet subjective listening has shown that something like this is indeed having an effect on the signal... and that changes in switches and clocks upstream of the DAC do have an affect on the output of the DAC, simply one that is not yet measurable with conventional measuring techniques. I for one enjoy the speculation of what it could be more than simply saying it can't be over and over.

 

16 minutes ago, barrows said:

Additionally, if this latency is effecting music playback sound quality, via some as yet unknown mechanism, then what would be the implications for sound quality for files streamed from the Internet (Tidal/Qobuz)?  I would guess (please correct me if I am wrong about this) that latencies from an Internet streamed file would be orders of magnitude greater than that for locally stored files considering how many Ethernet switches and the like must be involved from the path of the server to one's home.

The implications are big. This is perhaps why our digital playback chains have become so complex with the advent of streaming audio - we are trying in various ways to mitigate these effects. Local playback has its own substantial obstacles to overcome as well, by the way. There are lengthy discussions about types of memory media and SATA cables, vibration control, etc. having a very pronounced effect on SQ of local playback.

 

Also, as John Swenson has hinted at, there is perhaps a build-up of latency/timing/phase noise issues over each upstream re-clocking and yet there ALSO seems to be either a limit to their effects or a fall-off of these effects whereby they diminish with more proximal reclockings... Many have found, for instance, that a master clock sounds best when reclocking the last device - in my case, and in many, a SOtM tX-USBUltra - before the DAC... this would imply that although distant clocks do have an effect, the closer ones have a more pronounced effect. This would simultaneously explain why far-upstream clocks do seem to effect SQ and yet closer ones like the last switch, a USB purifier and of course the DAC's clock make MORE of a difference...

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1 minute ago, barrows said:

This speculation sounds like you are talking about a loss of data, as there is no timing information here relevant to audio playback, the only possible thing is data loss.  But, if there was data loss, it would audible as either an actual dropout, or a small  "tic" sound, as USB audio has no mechanism which corrects for data loss-there is no "interpretive" aspect to USB audio.  Those familiar with early days of USB audio, before async, will be familiar with these types of problems.  This type of data loss would not result in a general type of audio degradation (say, less 'air" or "presence" or any other general audio quality description), it would only result in a dropout or 'tic" sound.

 

Additionally, if this is actually something which happens, I suspect the ramifications for audio production would be extreme. 

 

No, it's not a loss of data. Nowhere in my examples I assume lost of data. Every bit is delivered as accurately as it is. Even with my Internet packet drops example, I am assuming that the packets get recovered.

What I am referring to is the recovery process of that data that adds uneven latency (called it deltas) between the packets. Hope that makes more sense. It does not seem like you are understanding what I am trying to explain so far (probably not doing a good job explaining it).

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OK, so let's say there is no data loss then.  There is a variance in the timing between packets.  This is a timing problem then, but, as I mentioned before, there is no mechanism for this timing problem to matter to the DAC.  The DAC only cares about two things: that the samples are accurate, and that they timed accurately (let's ignore power supply noise for this).  The samples are accurate (no data loss), and the timing is only determined by the DAC clock, so there is no problem?  

 

Again, the timing of the packets has no bearing on the DAC, the DAC only cares about its own local clock's accuracy.

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

Again, the timing of the packets has no bearing on the DAC, the DAC only cares about its own local clock's accuracy.

Then why bother with the ''ultra low jitter'' clock in the Ultrarendu isn't this a selling point over the basic Microrendu?

If they both deliver the signal without data loss and the only clock that matters is that in the DAC then why buy an Ultrarendu?

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1 minute ago, LTG2010 said:

Then why bother with the ''ultra low jitter'' clock in the Ultrarendu isn't this a selling point over the basic Microrendu?

If they both deliver the signal without data loss and the only clock that matters is that in the DAC then why buy an Ultrarendu?

I am not saying that I have not heard the improvement when the clock in the Renderer is upgraded to a Femto level part, quite to the contrary-I have certainly heard the difference.

The point of this discussion is to try and determine what mechanism is responsible for this difference.  And, subsequently, to to discuss whether, or not, improving clocks further upstream will make a difference as well.  John Swenson appears to have suggested (I could not quite follow his explanation precisely) that it is the phase noise of the clock which may be causing some sonic degradation, and he is hard at work trying to figure out a way to confirm this through measurement.  So far, there is no solid explanation yet.  My point here is to suggest that timing issues of Ethernet data cannot be the problem directly, as these have no influence on DAC timing in a direct sense.  To me, so far, it all has to come back to noise-maybe there is something about Ethernet that produces more noise when we have some packet jitter, and this noise gets to the DAC, and then causes issues.

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The DAC fixes timing issues between the application and the DAC. It cannot fix timing issues upstream of the music software. When the music software does not receive timely data, the stream it generates is not perfect. All the DAC is doing is regenerating the imperfect stream the application generated.

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14 minutes ago, Nenon said:

The DAC fixes timing issues between the application and the DAC. It cannot fix timing issues upstream of the music software. When the music software does not receive timely data, the stream it generates is not perfect. All the DAC is doing is regenerating the imperfect stream the application generated.

That is just not correct.  As long as the data received by USB is accurate, it is timed as perfectly as the design of the DAC and the local oscillator(s) allow.

Unless, again, when you say "the stream it generates is not perfect" that you are saying the actual data values are corrupted somehow.

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8 minutes ago, barrows said:

That is just not correct.  As long as the data received by USB is accurate, it is timed as perfectly as the design of the DAC and the local oscillator(s) allow.

Unless, again, when you say "the stream it generates is not perfect" that you are saying the actual data values are corrupted somehow. 

 

We are talking about streaming here... not playing a local file where you can ensure every bit is perfect. Streaming is real-time processing. In real-time processing latency on the input affects the output.

 

When we are ripping CDs, which is a much easier and controlled process, if you select the quick CD ripping process, you typically don't get the same bits of the CD, as you would do if you select a bit perfect process. The bit perfect setting would make your ripping software take its time to try to recover every single bit correctly. And with all those micro scratches on the CD, it may take much longer to go back and forth and try to re-read every sector.

 

The streaming application works on the clock. It has to deliver on the output regardless of what is happening on the input. Do you know how the software ensures the output is bit perfect and corresponds exactly to the input? What does the application do if a bit gets delayed for a moment, and that bit misses the time it needs to get out via the USB output? Does the application do some type of interpolation like the CD burning software does? Or does it skip that bit? Or does it stop? I guess if it's a big enough chunk of data missing, it would stop, but if it is not a lot, would it?

 

I, just like you, am looking for logical explanations. Not sure I have them yet, besides a few speculations that may or may not fit the big picture. But I will dive deeper into this.

 

Just played 30 seconds of a Tidal song and captured all the network traffic to see what it looks like. It's TCP. Tidal sends very small chunks of data - 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, 5 seconds, etc. The application data is encrypted with TLSv1.2. I believe it's a requirement for the streaming services not to send the entire track at once. And that is the bigger problem here - the software that's playing cannot buffer 100%. Also, I saw quite a few TCP retransmissions, and that is something I did not expect.

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"We are talking about streaming here... not playing a local file where you can ensure every bit is perfect. Streaming is real-time processing. In real-time processing latency on the input affects the output."

 

Oh, I am sorry, I am not referring to streaming from the Internet, that would be another topic for me-I only play locally stored files.  Although compromises involved in Internet based music file playback would be an interesting topic.  One problem with the semantics here is that some people use the term "streaming" to refer to any playback delivery via a Networked set up, and others refer to "streaming" as Internet based playback from sources like Tidal/Qobuz...  I have no knowledge of how Internet streams operate, are you suggesting that those streams really are real time operations?  For example, USB audio is not really a real time operation, while there is no error correction, the USB receiving device tells the sender to speed up or slow down the flow of packets to keep the buffer from underpins or overflows.  Locally stored files are not streamed in real time either.

 

Are you suggesting that the Ethernet timing variances (packet jitter) only effect the sonics of playback of Internet based playback?

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No wonder we could not agree on almost anything here. We were talking about completely different things. 

Let's define some parameters then and brainstorm together. Give me the exact set up you want to review. NAS --> Switch --> Streamer with USB Output --> DAC? Is that what you have in mind?

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Yes, or: Server (could be a computer or NAS)-Router (could be + switch, or not)-Renderer-USB (really could also be I2S/SPDIF)-DAC.  Just to be more clear.  My system is: Server-CAT 6A-Router-CAT 6A-FMC-OM3-Signature Rendu optical-USB-DAC, but as far as I am concerned, generally, any Ethernet based audio distribution playing locally stored files, like one might have a DAC with direct Ethernet input as well (meaning an internal Renderer).

 

 

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 Agreed...

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On 3/9/2019 at 3:09 PM, bobfa said:

I was wondering if we have gotten off track here?

 

I "think" the question is around one box vs two box solutions.   (Or maybe three)

 

I cannot comment on stuff I have not heard.  Until very recently I have been using a Sonic Transporter i7 DSP and an UltaRendu as my two box solution.  I have been studying different network methodologies to connect the two.  I have a long run between the server and the endpoint, about 50ft cable run.  I have swapped between FMC and ethernet, and the FMC was a little bit better.  Putting the UltraRendu on an LPS-1.2 or JS-2 made a much bigger difference.  Putting an HDPLEX200 on the Sonic Transporter was also a bigger difference.  OK and do not freak out.  Sticking the TLS switch right next to the endpoint made a big difference.  (Noodle that one folks). This solution is really good and sort of Goldilocks in price.

 

Note; using the two devices above server and endpoint with the same OS and user interface for setup and management using a web browser gets a big high-five from me.  

 

Soon you could pretty simply move up the price / value chain with some of the new commercial gear headed towards us.  And Optical Signature Rendu sounds really interesting,  One box in the system that should help all kinds of noise vectors.  There are SOO many new servers out there I am not sure what to even talk about.  

 

What I "think" is more important is the software you want to use and what you want to "play" with.  I am playing with AudioLinux.  I am playing with BIOS settings.  I am learning what has changed in Linux OS in the last ten years.  There is some really neat stuff under the hood.  Do NOT follow me down this path unless you are full-on geeked out by hanging a keyboard/mouse/and display off of the D-to-D in your stereo. And you want to play with SSH and SFTP!  I am really happy with what AL has done for the audio on my system!  

 

I cannot tell Siri or Alexa to play music or turn the volume down!  I still cannot get Soundcloud or YouTube on the stereo.  I love Roon for other reasons.  I need Roon to do more.

 

When I watched the silly component breakdown video from above, I am just amazed at the lack of respect to his audience and to industry in general.    I dare him to have somebody work with a custom sheet metal vendor to provide you with quality cases. And hire the engineer to put the asymmetrical feet in the right place to help eliminate vibrations and not tip over.  Oh, and I hope that he can do custom software engineering to wrap it all up; but I digress.

 

So keep your eyes out for actual listening reviews of the new stuff headed our way.  If you want to DIY there are some really fun threads here. Go watch the Darko.audio review of the Innous box and look at their software user interface.  You can also look at stuff like DCS!

 

I am off to drop an NVMe SSD into my server and install Euphony OS on it for dual boot audio playback Linux shootout!  Any bets?!?  Will the NVMe SSD change the QS of AL running off of the Optane stick??  

 

Bob

 

Well, I wanted to answer this when you first wrote it, but it took a little while to spec something similar out from Chinese suppliers. But it sure wasn't that hard. "Custom" case and all. 

 

Anyone really wants one of those, my cost would be $416 + shipping, so figure on a U.S. sale cost of about $799-$859, delivered.  Oh wait, I forgot this is the audiophilne market.  Make that $1999, delivered with a one year warranty. I'll keep a few extras on hand to swap out if there are any issues.

 

I specced in quantity 10, but in higher quantity, the price is significantly lower. So yeah, that ZENith machine probably cost the seller less than $300, delivered. 

 

So, I thought he was being crazy rude in his video --  there are a lot of better ways to present that. However, I don't necessarily see that he was inaccurate. 

 

Why is everyone throwing shade at the guy? So he sells expensive custom stuff, so do a lot of people here. So he sells an expensive chair? Up to you if you want to spend your money that way. But "facts is facts" - we audiophiles are ripped off all the time.  And not just by "ElectroCream",  ruthless cable salespeople, or MQA! 

 

I am not against making money mind you, I am against paying an extreme premium cost for mediocre gear. Not even in pretty bling! 

 

 

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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6 hours ago, Nenon said:

@barrows I suggest we move this discussion to a PM and report back if we have any discoveries to report.

 

Please do report back, even on another thread maybe. This was really interesting reading (for me anyway). Or maybe just continue the discussion on a new thread?

 

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24 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

If you ever set up a manufacturing company, one of the things you’ll almost certainly end up doing, if you want to make a profit at all, it to prepare a spreadsheet for all the costs that go into your product. What you’ll immediately discover is that the unit cost of materials is only one of many lines on the spreadsheet. While it will be an important factor in the overall cost of your product, you’ll soon figure out that as a percentage of the total selling price its not that high. What you’ll also figure out is that the number of cost contributors to your price is a lot higher than you initially suspected. Let me give you some of the contributors:

Premises

Heating and air conditioning

Building maintenance and cleaning

Cleaning materials 

Insurance

Business rates and local property taxes

Security 

Packing materials

Industrial design, outsourced services and consulting 

Prototyping

Testing

Production facilities and machinery

Warranty costs, repair bench and test rigs

Marketing costs....marketing collateral, trade shows, advertising, displays, 

Postage and shipping

Travel and hotel costs

Certification costs

Accounting costs 

Employee salaries, insurance and benefits

Own salary

Taxes (Value added tax, corporate tax, income tax)

New product R&D 

Software development costs

Phones and communications

Licenses and permits

Transport

IT and networking infrastructure

Production stock

Finished goods inventory 

Credit costs

Listening room and test rig

Water

Documentation

Dealer and user support

General supplies (tea, coffee, toilet paper, cleaning materials, 

 

The above would be for a small company. Add lots of employees and costs skyrocket. 

Quite frankly, adding up the component costs of a unit and using only those costs to make  inferences about margins really only demonstrates a lack of understanding about manufacturing and business accounting. 

As for purchasing everything in China, you’ve probably got a bit to learn there too. Firstly, if you simply go after price, its almost 100% sure you’ll have quality issues. In low cost Chinese manufacturing there’s no such thing as vendor loyalty or quality control. Cheapest ‘to-spec’ supplier wins....so expect to see the components in your Chinese products change on a regular basis. If you want to manage quality, then China is no different to any other region. Quality costs. 

Then to get the quantity breaks, you’ll need to order any custom, made-to-measure components in rather large quantities, pushing up you inventory costs substantially.

Quality is also an issue if you want to avoid pissing customers off with DOA products, so you’ve got to find ways to at least control and maybe improve the product quality of what comes out of China....not a trivial task.  Lots of travel and time involved there. 

In summary, when you know what goes into making a product,  when you value performance and you value quality products and excellent customer support you’ll realise that prices for something like the Innuos Zenith are entirely fair and reasonable and that no one is getting ripped off. Quite the opposite. Making and distributing hi-fi equipment is an expensive business with lots of cost elements

 

Honestly? Your post shows a very good ability to crib from the internet, but a rather uninspired understanding of the costs of doing business.. Anyone who owns or runs a small successful professional business is quite aware of all the costs involved, and how to price their services to survive and thrive with the necessary costs of doing business. 

 

Your conclusion, that $4200 for a device with a fully delivered cost probably around $300 is “fair and reasonable” is - nuts. It is purely an attempt to price something so high people believe it is a elite product. Snob marketing, we call it. You can spend whatever you want on it, but you will still only be getting $300 or so worth of equipment.  $800-850 per unit is a much more reasonable cost. If you add in service and support, maybe $1k, but for that, it had best be real service and support. 

 

I suggest if you need that kind of markup to make your business successful, you are not running it very well at all. Otherwise, it is just another of the thankfully few high end ripoffs that are still around.  And yes, there is such a thing as a global just in time inventory, and yes, it can be carefully used to control costs. 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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10 hours ago, Nenon said:

@barrows I suggest we move this discussion to a PM and report back if we have any discoveries to report. We hijacked the topic enough. 

While I followed with interest the exchange of mail, I also think that’s time to return to the topic. So guys. Did any one compared an  optical rendu &server with a Innous? I also be interested to see the results with an ultarendu. 

Thanks.

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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6 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Honestly? Your post shows a very good ability to crib from the internet, but a rather uninspired understanding of the costs of doing business.. Anyone who owns or runs a small successful professional business is quite aware of all the costs involved, and how to price their services to survive and thrive with the necessary costs of doing business. 

 

Your conclusion, that $4200 for a device with a fully delivered cost probably around $300 is “fair and reasonable” is - nuts. It is purely an attempt to price something so high people believe it is a elite product. Snob marketing, we call it. You can spend whatever you want on it, but you will still only be getting $300 or so worth of equipment.  $800-850 per unit is a much more reasonable cost. If you add in service and support, maybe $1k, but for that, it had best be real service and support. 

 

I suggest if you need that kind of markup to make your business successful, you are not running it very well at all. Otherwise, it is just another of the thankfully few high end ripoffs that are still around.  And yes, there is such a thing as a global just in time inventory, and yes, it can be carefully used to control costs. 

 

Please stop wasting my time. Putting words into my mouth then criticising them is a game but not one I want to join in with. 

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8 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Well, I wanted to answer this when you first wrote it, but it took a little while to spec something similar out from Chinese suppliers. But it sure wasn't that hard. "Custom" case and all. 

 

Anyone really wants one of those, my cost would be $416 + shipping, so figure on a U.S. sale cost of about $799-$859, delivered.  Oh wait, I forgot this is the audiophilne market.  Make that $1999, delivered with a one year warranty. I'll keep a few extras on hand to swap out if there are any issues.

 

I specced in quantity 10, but in higher quantity, the price is significantly lower. So yeah, that ZENith machine probably cost the seller less than $300, delivered. 

 

So, I thought he was being crazy rude in his video --  there are a lot of better ways to present that. However, I don't necessarily see that he was inaccurate. 

 

Why is everyone throwing shade at the guy? So he sells expensive custom stuff, so do a lot of people here. So he sells an expensive chair? Up to you if you want to spend your money that way. But "facts is facts" - we audiophiles are ripped off all the time.  And not just by "ElectroCream",  ruthless cable salespeople, or MQA! 

 

I am not against making money mind you, I am against paying an extreme premium cost for mediocre gear. Not even in pretty bling! 

 

 

 

 

Paul,

 

Since you quoted me I will outline a couple of things. I do not know what the guy in the video sells, it does not impact my thoughts here.  I agree that there is stuff out there that is way over priced.  Value is hard to determine.

 

In my opinion the video was put out to create noise and draw attention to the author. It may have been done with some spite?  I do not know.  I feel that it is short sighted to do things like that.   

 

I do not know what you found in your research, but like the video it appears to hand wave over the whole package of running a company and building a “system”.   I know what it takes; I run my own company and I have worked elsewhere  that build systems.  As one example I worked at Motorola where we built specialized computer systems for our customers.  It is not just buying a bunch of hardware from China and boxing it up for sale.  A 2 to 1 price vs cost is a short trip to bankruptcy. 

 

I have built my own server and endpoint and they are documented here.  (see my “from 0 to” threads).   The cost for that hardware is a lot higher even if purchased at wholesale.  My labor is “free to me” not others.  The software in my system is not free and I am paying, through licensing for that. There is a lot more.  How do you account for the research labor time or experience.   My rough estimate of my hardware purchases is around $7000 (retail) and software is around $1100 (retail).  My time is not included.

 

You have posted over 13000 items on the forum, I assume that you care.  If you can build, ship and support a product like Innous or the fancy chair, please do so and help the rest of us out.  Get us a better product for less.  Teach us how to do that.  Add to the value, PLEASE!

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6 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

If you ever set up a manufacturing company, one of the things you’ll almost certainly end up doing, if you want to make a profit at all, it to prepare a spreadsheet for all the costs that go into your product. What you’ll immediately discover is that the unit cost of materials is only one of many lines on the spreadsheet. While it will be an important factor in the overall cost of your product, you’ll soon figure out that as a percentage of the total selling price its not that high. What you’ll also figure out is that the number of cost contributors to your price is a lot higher than you initially suspected. Let me give you some of the contributors:

Premises

Heating and air conditioning

Building maintenance and cleaning

Cleaning materials 

Insurance

Business rates and local property taxes

Security 

Packing materials

Industrial design, outsourced services and consulting 

Prototyping

Testing

Production facilities and machinery

Warranty costs, repair bench and test rigs

Marketing costs....marketing collateral, trade shows, advertising, displays, 

Postage and shipping

Travel and hotel costs

Certification costs

Accounting costs 

Employee salaries, insurance and benefits

Own salary

Taxes (Value added tax, corporate tax, income tax)

New product R&D 

Software development costs

Phones and communications

Licenses and permits

Transport

IT and networking infrastructure

Production stock

Finished goods inventory 

Credit costs

Listening room and test rig

Water

Documentation

Dealer and user support

General supplies (tea, coffee, toilet paper, cleaning materials, 

 

The above would be for a small company. Add lots of employees and costs skyrocket. 

Quite frankly, adding up the component costs of a unit and using only those costs to make  inferences about margins really only demonstrates a lack of understanding about manufacturing and business accounting. 

As for purchasing everything in China, you’ve probably got a bit to learn there too. Firstly, if you simply go after price, its almost 100% sure you’ll have quality issues. In low cost Chinese manufacturing there’s no such thing as vendor loyalty or quality control. Cheapest ‘to-spec’ supplier wins....so expect to see the components in your Chinese products change on a regular basis. If you want to manage quality, then China is no different to any other region. Quality costs. 

Then to get the quantity breaks, you’ll need to order any custom, made-to-measure components in rather large quantities, pushing up you inventory costs substantially.

Quality is also an issue if you want to avoid pissing customers off with DOA products, so you’ve got to find ways to at least control and maybe improve the product quality of what comes out of China....not a trivial task.  Lots of travel and time involved there. 

In summary, when you know what goes into making a product,  when you value performance and you value quality products and excellent customer support you’ll realise that prices for something like the Innuos Zenith are entirely fair and reasonable and that no one is getting ripped off. Quite the opposite. Making and distributing hi-fi equipment is an expensive business with lots of cost elements

I would also add parts inventory costs: the better parts one specs in their product, the higher the costs are of keeping those parts in stock, this ties up capitol, and for many companies requires operating on loans, so debt management and interest payments becomes another hidden cost.  This why, even in very very, very expensive products, you often do not see the very best parts (like bulk foil resistors, for example).

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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2 hours ago, soares said:

Did any one compared an  optical rendu &server with a Innous?

 

I did not. But I owned an ultraRendu for a long time and had a Innuos Zenith MK3 in my system. The Zenith (at 4 times the price of the ultraRendu with LPS) sounded a lot better in my system. Did it sound 4 times better? No. But maybe 2 :). It was a significant difference and an eye opener how important the source is. Never had the optical rendu, so I can't comment on that. The Innous servers sound very good as standalone servers. I wonder if installing Euphony on them would be a big improvement over their InnuOS.

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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