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Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy


esldude

Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. Ry Cooder and V.M. Bhatt which is the copy?

    • File A is the copy
      3
    • File B is the copy
      3
    • They all sound the same to me
      0
    • They all sound different to me
      0
    • skipped
      0
  2. 2. Phil Woods which is the copy?

    • File A is the copy
      3
    • File B is the copy
      3
    • They all sound the same to me
      0
    • They all sound different to me
      0
    • skipped
      0
  3. 3. Cowboy Junkies which is the copy?

    • File A is the copy
      2
    • File B is the copy
      4
    • They all sound the same to me
      0
    • They all sound different to me
      0
    • skipped
      0

This poll is closed to new votes

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  • Poll closed on 03/06/19 at 04:40 AM

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A chance to hear what multiple copies of DA and AD conversion do to a music file. 

 

I’m making this a poll, but you don’t have to vote. One of these files has been thru 8 generations of copying. So it is a chance to hear what damage is done with multiple digital copies of a 44.1 khz 16 bit file. Would be nice to hear from you if you listen to these to get your thoughts.

 

The three linked zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled a Reference, one is A and one is B. Either A or B is the same as the Reference file. Please choose in the poll the one which is a copy. The copy has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD conversion. So it should be the odd one out on sound quality.

 

Each file is a 30 second snippet of a full song.

 

I had five files, but you can only have 3 questions in a poll.  I'll put up another in a few minutes with two more files. 

 

Your choices are:

A is a copy.

B is a copy.

They all sound the same to me.

They all sound different to me.

Skipped (meaning you skipped listening to this file)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8dhhxkjsbaho4w/Ry Cooder and VM Bhatt.zip?dl=0

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2pnbm1j0ecyo35h/Phil Woods repost.zip?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xc3g1h887vot4hn/Cowboy Junkies.zip?dl=0

 

 

There is a part Two to this with two more files to compare.  

 

 

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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It's reeeeeally close.  But after half a dozen blinded passes at each one, I consistently came up with these choices for the odd file out. All were based on the sound and feel of percussive transients plus the timbre of each instrument.  Great choices of music, BTW!!

 

Cooder - A

Woods - B

Junkies - A

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54 minutes ago, esldude said:

A chance to hear what multiple copies of DA and AD conversion do to a music file. 

 

I’m making this a poll, but you don’t have to vote. One of these files has been thru 8 generations of copying. So it is a chance to hear what damage is done with multiple digital copies of a 44.1 khz 16 bit file. Would be nice to hear from you if you listen to these to get your thoughts.

 

The three linked zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled a Reference, one is A and one is B. Either A or B is the same as the Reference file. Please choose in the poll the one which is a copy. The copy has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD conversion. So it should be the odd one out on sound quality.

 

Each file is a 30 second snippet of a full song.

 

I had five files, but you can only have 3 questions in a poll.  I'll put up another in a few minutes with two more files. 

 

Your choices are:

A is a copy.

B is a copy.

They all sound the same to me.

They all sound different to me.

Skipped (meaning you skipped listening to this file)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8dhhxkjsbaho4w/Ry Cooder and VM Bhatt.zip?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1szqdrtoq7kngit/Phil Woods.zip?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xc3g1h887vot4hn/Cowboy Junkies.zip?dl=0

 

 

I think I got 4 out of 5. Bob Marley took me the longest to decide, and I wasn't sure at the end. I picked wrong on that one. The others were right, and they all took less than a minute to pick.  And yes, all done by listening, first :)

 

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For those who may wonder:

 

March Audio Dac 1 is the DAC for these files.

 

Antelope Audio Zen Tour for the ADC. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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@Miska

Here is a screen shot with the March Dac 1 running first white noise at -4 dbFS and then a -.1 dbFS sweep.  The March is running at 48 khz, and the Zen Tour is recording at 192 khz.  The spectrogram is 8192 FFT with the background going gray at -140 dbFS.   The left side is the Zen Tour ADC and the right side is the Forte ADC.  The roll off to below -140 dbFS at 68 khz is the Zen Tour ADC.  I see this with other DACs being input.  The first image from the March is about -98 to -100 dbFS in the sweep.  The upper one barely seen between 72 and 96 khz is -132 dbFS or less.   The Forte is comparatively messy. 836231692_MarchDAC48into192ZTthenForte.thumb.png.d2c542767c42ce4252e5b7e0e039aa47.png

 

Here is the FFT of the white noise from the Zen Tour ADC fed by the March DAC.

 

1890997093_MarchDAC48into192ZTthenFortespectrum.thumb.png.16731cf8858dfd9fde298657bece5d7d.png

 

 

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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1 hour ago, esldude said:

@Miska

Here is a screen shot with the March Dac 1 running first white noise at -4 dbFS and then a -.1 dbFS sweep.  The March is running at 48 khz, and the Zen Tour is recording at 192 khz.  The spectrogram is 8192 FFT with the background going gray at -140 dbFS.   The left side is the Zen Tour ADC and the right side is the Forte ADC.  The roll off to below -140 dbFS at 68 khz is the Zen Tour ADC.  I see this with other DACs being input.  The first image from the March is about -98 to -100 dbFS in the sweep.  The upper one barely seen between 72 and 96 khz is -132 dbFS or less.   The Forte is comparatively messy. 836231692_MarchDAC48into192ZTthenForte.thumb.png.d2c542767c42ce4252e5b7e0e039aa47.png

 

Here is the FFT of the white noise from the Zen Tour ADC fed by the March DAC.

 

1890997093_MarchDAC48into192ZTthenFortespectrum.thumb.png.16731cf8858dfd9fde298657bece5d7d.png

 

 

I was correlating your files with this:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-march-audio-dac1.5755/

and datasheet of the 9038. And that's how I came to that conclusion I posted.

 

From your plot it is harder to see corner of the digital filter. I was just comparing with white noise plot above link with the datasheet info of the filters.

 

Regarding ADC's, the Zen is cleaner but seems to have extra filter for HF, not just ADC's. It would be also interesting to compare phase response of the two...

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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  • 2 weeks later...

Since the poll is closed here are the answers for each file. 

 

1 is Ry Cooder and V.M. Bhatt B is the copy.

2 is Phil Woods A is the copy

3 is Cowboy Junkies B is the copy

4 is Jennifer Warnes B is the copy

5 is Bob Marley A is the copy.

 

1 B is the Copy

2 A is the Copy

3 B is the Copy

4 B is the copy

5 A is the copy

 

 

So 50:50 split on the first two and 2, 4 split on the third.  

 

I can ABX them all.  It isn't easy, but it is doable.  I can't do the 4th gen files or even the 6th gen files.  I can the 8th gen files.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Somehow the Phil Woods file was messed up again.  

Here is the repaired link. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b899j2ljmonlxaf/Phil Woods repost.zip?dl=0

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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46 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

what does "ABX them all" mean?  that you can tell them apart blind at ____ level of significance?

Yes, I can put them in foobar abx and score at 5% or less probability of guessing. I believe this was because of the FR ripple in the ADC. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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