ditching USB for SPDIF on PC?

[numlog]

The USB interface in my DAC broke, instead of replacing it I was considering some alternatives to USB.

Since a lot had been done to improve the rest of the USB chain the only alternative to replacing the USB interface worth trying was PCie to SPDIF because its not expensive.

 

My MoBo has HD Audio optical SPDIF output and the resolution is very poor compared to USB but it doesnt suffer from the glare of USB, until now I had contributed the poor resolution to the inherently jittery SPDIF protocol and the lack of glare to a combination of the galvanic isolation of optical and a side effect of the muddier sound, 

 

After some investigation I discovered the electrical SPDIF signal driving the optical transmitter in the MoBo could fairly easily be used with a coax SPDIF input , the resulting sound from this was actually pretty good. the optical format was largely to blame for the poor sound quality, resolution is still not good as USB but a lot better than optical, and the mellow and smooth sound is still entirely there...

I actually think I prefer the sound of this to USB though it might change after more time, a lot of time was spent on the USB chain and while succesful in improving resolution and timing didnt really change the unnatural digital character of USB. Electrical SPDIF doesnt have this.

 

Im considering buying a PCIe to SPDIF soundcard, easy to mod and not expensive.

replacing the USB interface alone is quite expensive and further improvements like reclockers and galvanic isolators are big investments... and I have a feeling that they will never truly get of rid of the USB ''character''. and at that point it would better to switch to ethernet.

 

Any thoughts on this?

There were some posts mentioning that after some upgrades they still prefer CD player SPDIF out to their PC, but this is a bit different.

 

Also should mention the DAC is Sabre , working  in async mode with a local clock...

[audiobomber]

16 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Other than DSD capability, well implemented Coax SPDIF will equal the performance of most USB implementations without the need for fancy power supplies, expensive after market USB cables, ISO Regens etc. 

Many USB DAC inputs are still sub standard , although this is improving recently.

As I understand it, asynchronous USB (and I2S) should be superior to SPDIF because the DAC clock controls timing. SPDIF has a sending and receiving clock.

[sandyk]

15 hours ago, numlog said:

Any thoughts on this?

There were some posts mentioning that after some upgrades they still prefer CD player SPDIF out to their PC, but this is a bit different.

 I get great results using a (now old) Asus Xonar D2X soundcard via Coax SPDIF into a highly modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 and a DIY Class A Headphone amplifier. It's Coax SPDIF Out appears to be better than Motherboard Coax SPDIF.

 I find that best results are obtained using internal SSDs for the OS and Music SSD instead of HDDs , but with the internal +12V supply regulated down to a much cleaner and better isolated +5V supply for the SSDs.

 Even a cheap 40uV ebay PSU PCB has been found by several other members as well, to result in a small but worthwhile SQ improvement.

 This will  also improve USB audio unless you prefer to listen with your test equipment as several members appear to do.

[numlog]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 I get great results using a (now old) Asus Xonar D2X soundcard via Coax SPDIF into a highly modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 and a DIY Class A Headphone amplifier. It's Coax SPDIF Out appears to be better than Motherboard Coax SPDIF.

 I find that best results are obtained using internal SSDs for the OS and Music SSD instead of HDDs , but with the internal +12V supply regulated down to a much cleaner and better isolated +5V supply for the SSDs.

 Even a cheap 40uV ebay PSU PCB has been found by several other members as well, to result in a small but worthwhile SQ improvement.

 This will  also improve USB audio unless you prefer to listen with your test equipment as several members appear to do.

Just what I was hoping to hear. Like most other PCIe cards the clocks and powersupply can be upgraded on these soundcards too so there might some real potential there. 

 

Have you tried HDD for music storage with SSD for OS? 5400 rpm HDD sounded much better than a M.2 and a SATA SSD as storage drive.

its similar to the difference noted above with the MoBo SPDIF vs USB,

SSDs have the sharper and tighter sound (but not necessarily more dynamic) with a similar glare and unnatural sound like USB. HDDs are more liquid and pleasant to listen, unlike coax it is quite a bit more resolving across the frequency range than SSD

[sandyk]

11 hours ago, numlog said:

Just what I was hoping to hear. Like most other PCIe cards the clocks and powersupply can be upgraded on these soundcards too so there might some real potential there. 

 

Have you tried HDD for music storage with SSD for OS? 5400 rpm HDD sounded much better than a M.2 and a SATA SSD as storage drive. 

its similar to the difference noted above with the MoBo SPDIF vs USB,

SSDs have the sharper and tighter sound (but not necessarily more dynamic) with a similar glare and unnatural sound like USB. HDDs are more liquid and pleasant to listen, unlike coax it is quite a bit more resolving across the frequency range than SSD

 

I have tried both HDD and SSD for OS and Music storage. I wouldn't use a SSD for music storage that gets it's power from the motherboard. It's great for processor intensive applications such as video editing which can be much faster, but perhaps at the expense of a little degradation with Audio quality due to the far noisier power from the Motherboard ?

All peripheral devices benefit from a cleaner , more isolated power supply.

[audiobomber]

As a sidebar, I lost the USB input on my DAC. I discussed repair with a tech and he said the only thing he'd be able to do is check that the pins aren't bent. He said that's almost always the problem. I thought I may as well have a look for myself, and sure enough one of the USB B pins was mashed out of place. I straightened it and all good now. Worth checking, even if you proceed with SPDIF.

 

PS Properly implemented, USB should be better than SPDIF. 

[sandyk]

41 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

PS Properly implemented, USB should be better than SPDIF. 

 

 Other than DSD capability, well implemented Coax SPDIF will equal the performance of most USB implementations without the need for fancy power supplies, expensive after market USB cables, ISO Regens etc. 

Many USB DAC inputs are still sub standard , although this is improving recently.

[Tintinabulum]

post will be automatically deleted...

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

As I understand it, asynchronous USB (and I2S) should be superior to SPDIF because the DAC clock controls timing. SPDIF has a sending and receiving clock.

 Reread the original post by the OP and you will see that this hasn't been his personal experience and he is looking for a cheap alternative to replace the USB interface in  his DAC.
Incidentally, Coax SPDIF inputs may also go into PLLs in conjunction with high stability, low ppm clocks such as a .1 PPM TCXO, which may give even  better SQ results with high res. LPCM, but not such a noticeable improvement with 16/44.1
 That has been my experience with my old highly modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 where you can hear the SQ jump up a notch when the TCXO " locks in" a few minutes after switch on.
 Improved clocking with Coax SPDIF does of course need further attention to it's PSU area for best results, just like with ALL clock modifications.
 

[audiobomber]

@sandykI believe what I said is correct. Properly implemented, USB and I2S are technically superior to S/PDIF.

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

@sandykI believe what I said is correct. Properly implemented, USB and I2S are technically superior to S/PDIF.

 

Properly implemented means that you usually need to spend MANY 100s of $ to get the best from USB.

 I haven't said anything about I2s ,which may be superior, and neither did the OP

 

The OP wishes to change from his broken USB set up , with which he has never been satisfied as he  made clear in his original post.

Quote

I actually think I prefer the sound of this to USB though it might change after more time, a lot of time was spent on the USB chain and while succesful in improving resolution and timing didnt really change the unnatural digital character of USB. Electrical SPDIF doesnt have this. Im considering buying a PCIe to SPDIF soundcard, easy to mod and not expensive.

replacing the USB interface alone is quite expensive and further improvements like reclockers and galvanic isolators are big investments... and I have a feeling that they will never truly get of rid of the USB ''character''. and at that point it would better to switch to ethernet

 

[audiobomber]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Properly implemented means that you usually need to spend MANY 100s of $ to get the best from USB.

 

Depends on the DAC I guess. My DAC designer says to use USB, and my listening tests show that it sounds better than S/PDIF.  I commented  because I read posts on the net where people say S/PDIF is better, and that should not be true, given proper implementation of both. The only thing I use between my DAC and sms-200 is an iDefender, to block the USB 5V power.

[numlog]

The USB interface is using I2S

defining ''better'' is what makes it difficult, just as you''d expect the old USB-I2S was techinically superior to the MoBo spdif, as in more musical data ended up at the headphones, but it sounded more unpleasant/unnatural.

Is SPDIF masking this unpleasantness or was USB adding it?

 

The interface and USB PCIe card had seperate low noise supplies, the USB cable was short and very well shielded with ground and power disconnected. USB with XMOS and Amanero interfaces were always technically better than the MoBo SPDIF and these things improved it further but the USB ''sound''' always remained.

if this problem was related to the PC or DAC it should still be present over spdif so it has to be USB.

 

Based on Sandy's experience SPDIF from a PCIe card should be better than the MoBo SPDIF but without another USB interface there wont be a definitive answer as to whether or not USB introduces other ''problems'' and if SPDIF's jitter problem is less or more of a problem than said ''problems''.  

 

[numlog]

46 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Depends on the DAC I guess. My DAC designer says to use USB, and my listening tests show that it sounds better than S/PDIF.  I commented  because I read posts on the net where people say S/PDIF is better, and that should not be true, given proper implementation of both. The only thing I use between my DAC and sms-200 is an iDefender, to block the USB 5V power.

could you specify the source and type of spdif connection you used?

 

btw my experience with the iDefender is that it degrades sound quality slightly and should only be used for ground loops problems, this was after comparing the same USB cable with tape over power pins in the connector vs using the iDefender. I think it might be due to the data lines passing through a PCB and 2 extra connectors, but if you dont own or believe in ''audio grade''  USB cables then you might not think that matters.

[audiobomber]

11 hours ago, numlog said:

could you specify the source and type of spdif connection you used?

 

btw my experience with the iDefender is that it degrades sound quality slightly and should only be used for ground loops problems, this was after comparing the same USB cable with tape over power pins in the connector vs using the iDefender. I think it might be due to the data lines passing through a PCB and 2 extra connectors, but if you dont own or believe in ''audio grade''  USB cables then you might not think that matters.

I compared USB to S/PDIF via coax from an Oppo 980H, and optical via Vizio TV and Chromecast Audio. USB was noticeably superior via wi-fi to an sms-200.

 

My Audiolab 8200CD has a CD tray, which means USB and CD play through the same DAC and power supply. They sound very slightly different but I have no preference for CD vs. USB and zero compression FLAC. I don't use any USB treatment other than the sMs-200 streamer and blocked 5V power on the USB cable.

 

Thanks for your comments on the iDefender. I did some comparisons and you're right, it does degrade the sound. I only had it in the main system for a week and hadn't cross-checked after the break-in period. I've gone back to electrical tape on the USB 5V pin. The iDefender has been moved to a secondary system with RPI, 5V iPower and iOne DAC. It seems fine there.