Archimago and the TLS DS-1

[audiobomber]

Just now, mansr said:

On the flip side, suppose Sal, plissken, and I are audiophiles. After all, we value good sound. Then people like you are the anti-audiophiles constantly trashing audiophiles.

LOL! Good one, but no. 🤣

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

LOL! Good one, but no. 🤣

Are you saying that we don't value sound or that you're not trashing us? Either way, you'd be wrong.

[danadam]

20 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

OMG, this is so ridiculous. So tell me, if your ears are not the ultimate judge of sound quality, why do anything. After all, you clearly won't be able to hear a difference or if you do, you are just being fooled, right? You keep staring at your data while I listen to music

Maybe it's just me but this gives the impression that you listen to the gear rather than music. And that it is actually he who could listen to music with a peace of mind, knowing that it is as good as it can get.

[JoeWhip]

I hear a difference in a ton of equipment. However, a difference is not nescessarily an improvement. Too often, people hear a difference and think wow, that’s better. However, long term listening reveals it not to be an improvement. I have been an audiophile since the 80’s and have heard a ton of stuff. Some holds up over long term listening. Quite a bit of stuff doesn’t. The key to me is to make that determination as quickly as possible.

[Paul R]

Being an audiophile encompasses one heck of a broad spectrum of interests. Some audiophiles absolutely adore listening to the gear, sometimes even more than the music. That's perfectly cool. Some audiophiles would love to get rid of all the gear and use a cranial implant to access every song ever recorded in the absolute highest fidelity possible. That's perfectly cool too. 

 

And then a lot of people like both the music and the gear, preferring to come to some kind of balance between the two, often mediated by budget, environment, as well as the cool factor. They like to tinker, as well as listen.  And that's perfectly okay as well. 

 

I think it is pretty obvious which folks tend to like the hardware, measurements, and all that jazz, and which folks prefer a more loosey-goosey approach to satisfying their audiophile cravings.  Why make a judgement about anyone in the hobby?  Wait long enough, and their opinions will probably change anyway. (grin)

 

Measurements are hard facts that people can sink a tooth into and help provide an understanding of some audio theories, practices, and understandings that are quite counter-intuitive. And folks who want to base their understanding on hard facts are the very necessary counterweight to the "other side" of the spectrum. Some goo too far, with "every amplifier | DAC | turntable | etc.  sounds exactly the same", but it is okay for people to be there. It certainly saves on their audio gear budget! 

 

The other side can get pretty far out too.  Some people feel that you have to spend enormous amounts of money to get great sound, and if you don't,  then you can't be an audiophile. I mean, why should I spend $30K on a turntable, and amp, speakers, or a DAC?  I have fun with some of the vinyl guys - vinyl is way cool, but it doesn't sound better than good digital. That is a fact "easily" proven by recording an LP to a digital file and playing it back. It will still have all that cool wow and flutter vinyl sound in it.  

 

Both sides can get pretty far out. In some cases spending a great deal more money is almost certain to be foolish. In other cases, not spending enough money is just as foolish. In some cases, a partial understanding of the mathematics involved can be worse than no understanding at all. In other cases, being to rigid about "the facts" can make you miss something easy. Plenty of examples on all sides - green marker on CDs, jitter, IMD, and so on are all good examples of things found because the "loose goose" side said something just didn't sound right. 

 

Okay - off my soapbox now... 

 

-Paul

 

 

[mansr]

20 minutes ago, Paul R said:

Plenty of examples on all sides - green marker on CDs, jitter, IMD, and so on are all good examples of things found because the "loose goose" side said something just didn't sound right.

Hold on, are you saying there are still people who believe in the green marker?

[Paul R]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

Hold on, are you saying there are still people who believe in the green marker?

 

Yep. Met a guy a few weeks ago who is convinced about that. He plays all his CDs on an Rega CD player (a Saturn?) and carefully ensures the green marker has not worn off. Swears by it. (grin) His opinion of "digital playback" with a DAC is - um - sulphureous?

 

And no, I didn't point out the any CD player is digital. I may be crazy, but I am not a fool!  

 

[FredM]

Great topic, interesting to see how some try to convince others to apply their personal (decision making) norms, technical beliefs, listening preferences.. (sometimes without having heard a product).

 

Why try to persistently convince others, quite useless. Most adults are perfectly able to know which car they fancy, have a favourite beer or wine, set a budget, develop a friendship, decide which job they like, etc..Imho it’s personal and ‘not everything that can be counted, counts; not everything that counts can be counted’.

 

Some amusement to relax a bit 😋

 

 

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

On the flip side, suppose Sal, plissken, and I are audiophiles. After all, we value good sound. 

 

So does that mean you own the same poorly measuring, poorly built $300 DAC that Sal and Plissken use? 

[rando]

On 2/14/2019 at 12:26 PM, firedog said:

He shows that many scenarios that audiophiles trot out as making a significant difference appear to do nothing of the sort when objectively evaluated.

 

More broadly, he frames questions in a way that no definitive answer can immediately rise from while showing a factual basis for examining them.  Be that concerning a device or asking for volunteers to employ his test methods.  Anyone expecting more than personal entertainment should seek out a highly specialized professional and pay their rates to receive their services.

[Ralf11]

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables without using DBTs is wasting their money and time.  They may think they are an audiophile but are not.  They are merely tweakers.

 

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables while using DBTs to test or using measurements capable of showing a difference in sound quality IS an audiophile.  They will use inexpensive tweaks if they make sense w/out testing (conductive fluids on connectors); they will not do stupid things which could only work by magical means; they will test things that may be implausible but might work iff the likelihood of a payoff in SQ exceeds the work function of (time, money).

 

 

The former group is challenged by reality (see Archimago's work).  The latter group welcomes reality.

 

The former group has an open mind like a screen door in a submarine.  The latter group has an open mind like a scientist.

 

[Ralf11]

BTW, I mentioned 4 things and have evaluated each.

 

Those 4 things are not an exclusive list.  No warranty applies, may not be legal in your state, use of electricity carries risks; tests done by a professional driver on a closed course.

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

So does that mean you own the same poorly measuring, poorly built $300 DAC that Sal and Plissken use? 

 

The DC-1 isn't the best and isn't the worst measuring. For $300 it makes my wife happy for the ability to enable blue-tooth via rca in. I also have A.T. and AKG headphones. The DC-1 is actually a top shelf head-phone amp.

 

There is nothing on the market at the $300 that I paid for it that can do what it does.

 

And since we are talking about measuring, and please realize you wanted to throw that particular stone, it measured better than your LPS-1 and Regen combo 😉

[Paul R]

36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables without using DBTs is wasting their money and time.  They may think they are an audiophile but are not.  They are merely tweakers.

 

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables while using DBTs to test or using measurements capable of showing a difference in sound quality IS an audiophile.  They will use inexpensive tweaks if they make sense w/out testing (conductive fluids on connectors); they will not do stupid things which could only work by magical means; they will test things that may be implausible but might work iff the likelihood of a payoff in SQ exceeds the work function of (time, money).

 

 

The former group is challenged by reality (see Archimago's work).  The latter group welcomes reality.

 

The former group has an open mind like a screen door in a submarine.  The latter group has an open mind like a scientist.

 

 

(Amusement)

 

So, because I failed to do expensive time consuming double blind tests when I put in sets of Barry Diament's floating vibration control devices, I am not an audiophile? 

Because I didn't do a double blind test when I put in new speaker cables?

Or when I decided to use a V-Link, Wavelegth USB DACs, separated out power and signal on USB, or any of those other things I have had fun playing with over the years? 

 

I think your standards are perhaps, a little too narrow.

 

-Paul 

 

[Ralf11]

it seems you didn't read the entire post - that may be your real problem

[Paul R]

 

My "real problem" - as defined by you, is that I don't agree with you - on many subjects. 

 

Obviously, I do not see that as a problem. 

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables without using DBTs is wasting their money and time.  They may think they are an audiophile but are not.  They are merely tweakers.

I have to disagree. They are audiophiles, albeit inefficient ones.

 

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Anyone who has upgraded power supplies, added USB enhancement, installed vibration control under components, and uses audiophile cables while using DBTs to test or using measurements capable of showing a difference in sound quality IS an audiophile.  They will use inexpensive tweaks if they make sense w/out testing (conductive fluids on connectors); they will not do stupid things which could only work by magical means; they will test things that may be implausible but might work iff the likelihood of a payoff in SQ exceeds the work function of (time, money).

 

The former group is challenged by reality (see Archimago's work).  The latter group welcomes reality.

 

The former group has an open mind like a screen door in a submarine.  The latter group has an open mind like a scientist.

I have replaced the power supply in my Tascam interface. I have not done any blind listening tests. The reason I did it was to get rid of ultrasonic noise in recorded signals, mainly of benefit when using it for measurements.

[christopher3393]

29 minutes ago, Paul R said:

I think your standards are perhaps, a little too narrow.

 (welcome back, Paul) 

 

Maybe it's analogous to this: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

But if that's roughly the case, why not heed this?  

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast

ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them

under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

[fas42]

13 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

So how did my CD’s sound?  In a word, boring.....the attributes that caused me to select those particular CDs were entirely missing. In fact some of the tracks sounded so average, unremarkable and bland  I was quite embarrassed and spent most of the track wishing it would end. 

 

Had to comment on this one, ... over 2 decades ago, I used a Status Quo greatest hits CD for a fast evaluation of systems in stores, etc. It was always almost embarassing, because the fancy rig made such a  mess of the content; it was usually like listening to a loud AM radio ... the inability of these systems to reveal what was actually on the recording without injecting high levels of audible distortion shone through, and I gave up this approach .

[Paul R]

16 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

 (welcome back, Paul) 

 

Maybe it's analogous to this: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

But if that's roughly the case, why not heed this?  

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast

ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them

under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

 

Hi Christoper - well said. I take it to heart!  

 

[fas42]

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Is the music demanding my attention, or am I reading or thinking of what change to make next? Accurate sound is science, but the art is in the music and how compelling the reproduction. Linn championed this many years ago with their toe-tap test. Getting lost in the performance is FAR more important than measurements. Come back when you can measure how much I love how a system sounds.

 

IME, accurate sound is an art and a science ... currently. Note, art comes before science, because there are still no clear cut methods of evaluating and prescribing what is required to achieve optimum - experience is still the most powerful tool here, with ears as the measuring stick.

 

Science comes in when you realise, from experiences to date, that there are generic weaknesses in systems. As an example, most power supplies in power amplifiers are substandard to what is needed - only made good enough to meet easily measured, supposedly impressive specs. The reality that creates, is circuitry that generates inadequate SQ when the "going gets tough" - everyone knows the gear that falls to pieces once a more realistic volume level is called for ...

 

And here insightful engineering provides the answers - one can analyse what is the underlying issue, and design a robust solution.

 

 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Paul R said:

 Some goo too far, with "every amplifier | DAC | turntable | etc.  sounds exactly the same", but it is okay for people to be there.

 

 

Niiice typo ...

[fas42]

The core of the thinking on show here is still the obsession with Adding Goodness, not, Subracting Badness - just about all the conversations are along the lines of, "I can hear an unpleasant rattle in my car - I know! I'll replace the mediocre sound system that came from the factory with a more powerful one, so I can turn up the volume, and not hear the annoying sound, wherever it's coming from, any more - yep, good one, Fred!!"

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

My "real problem" - as defined by you, is that I don't agree with you ....

 

 

 

My opinions are based on data.  Yours are not.

 

 

[Don Hills]

18 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

...So how did my CD’s sound?  In a word, boring.....the attributes that caused me to select those particular CDs were entirely missing. In fact some of the tracks sounded so average, unremarkable and bland  I was quite embarrassed and spent most of the track wishing it would end. 

 

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Had to comment on this one, ... over 2 decades ago, I used a Status Quo greatest hits CD for a fast evaluation of systems in stores, etc. It was always almost embarassing, because the fancy rig made such a  mess of the content; it was usually like listening to a loud AM radio ... the inability of these systems to reveal what was actually on the recording without injecting high levels of audible distortion shone through, and I gave up this approach .

 

From my experiences with listening to Status Quo on many different systems over the years, the distortion and "loud AM radio" sound was present in the recordings. The more competent and revealing the system, the more clearly you could hear it. Whereas it sounded fine on the old Dansette...  😉

 

Same for Blackmore's experience - if you think your system is  right and everyone else's is wrong, you ought to consider that you might just have it backwards. Your system might be emphasizing certain characteristics of the music that higher fidelity systems reproduce accurately, the result being a sound more to your expectations and tastes.