Archimago and the TLS DS-1

[vmartell22]

Posted this over at Music Servers, not sure if was the wrong place - no replies, so trying here...

So,  Archimago has a interesting post

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/02/musings-computer-audio-mythos-comment.html

 

I have always wondered on the advantages of a high end streamer - something like the Sony HAP-Z1ES - I mean there is no denying that they are beautiful machines - but cannot help but wonder how they are better than a well configured computer based system - I doubt the internal software would do more than what  JRiver does cheaper - or even Roon, expensive as it is...  But these streamers/servers like that  are dedicated, beautifully designed machines. To me, the TLS DS-1,  is too much like a regular NUC - fancy clock notwithstanding <--- and this is Archimago's point - that probably doesn't matter.  

 

Been thinking of moving away from the laptop I use as a player to a NUC, but as a JRiver user, need to research how to configure headless - but maybe Audiolinux is worth a try... Wonder if the DS-1 is worth the extra dough, maybe even not for the fancy clock, but just get a fully configured box that just works...

 

 

v

 

[Blackmorec]

I read Archimago’s critique and was reminded of something Danial Boorstin wrote; “ the greatest enemy of progress is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” 

People cease to look for further information if they are arrogant enough to believe that they have all they need. 

 

Its very clear from his own writing that Archimago doesn’t know what he doesn’t know...the so-called state of ‘unconscious ignorance’. During my career in high tech, critics like Archimago were ten-a-penny.....very vocal but virtually zero actual contribution. Its the experimenters, innovators and inventors that are the rarity and that drive progress, despite the critic’s best efforts to negate their work. 

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

I read Archimago’s critique and was reminded of something Danial Boorstin wrote; “ the greatest enemy of progress is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” 

People cease to look for further information if they are arrogant enough to believe that they have all they need. 

 

Its very clear from his own writing that Archimago doesn’t know what he doesn’t know...the so-called state of ‘unconscious ignorance’. During my career in high tech, critics like Archimago were ten-a-penny.....very vocal but virtually zero actual contribution. Its the experimenters, innovators and inventors that are the rarity and that drive progress, despite the critic’s best efforts to negate their work. 

Don't worry.  Archimago did not prove anything but showed a list and claimed that the list won't work.  It's of at most the same level of credential of Rajiv's claim.  Not better than what Rajiv's clsaim,.  To me, what A said is of no substance and just claiming lots of terms like the NS theorem.  It's typical parrots' talk and I won't waste  my time on it.

 

To make my point clearer rather than imitating what A is doing, I will point out one thing.  Romaz did claim he can tell the NUC when blind.  For a person with very simple logic may try to verify this.  But I see no such intention but just insisting one's original opinion.  It's not discussion.

[pkane2001]

3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I read Archimago’s critique and was reminded of something Danial Boorstin wrote; “ the greatest enemy of progress is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” 

People cease to look for further information if they are arrogant enough to believe that they have all they need. 

 

Its very clear from his own writing that Archimago doesn’t know what he doesn’t know...the so-called state of ‘unconscious ignorance’. During my career in high tech, critics like Archimago were ten-a-penny.....very vocal but virtually zero actual contribution. Its the experimenters, innovators and inventors that are the rarity and that drive progress, despite the critic’s best efforts to negate their work. 

 

Interesting. Probably the complete opposite of what I see @Archimago as doing. Unlike most here, he conducts thoughtful, objective, repeatable experiments to prove his points. Does he have an opinion and a bias? Sure, like most of us humans. But he spends his time testing and documenting real evidence to back it up. His contribution is the result of many tests, with published data and measurements. These include many internet blind tests with good, well-documented statistical analysis at the end. IMHO, he is one of very few who actually does real experimentation. Sure, that linked article was just an 'opinion' piece, but it's based on the totality of his published results and shouldn't be taken out of that context.

[Speedskater]

I too would go with @Archimago's thoughts rather than any of his critics or nay-sayers.

[DarwinOSX]

4 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I read Archimago’s critique and was reminded of something Danial Boorstin wrote; “ the greatest enemy of progress is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” 

People cease to look for further information if they are arrogant enough to believe that they have all they need. 

 

Its very clear from his own writing that Archimago doesn’t know what he doesn’t know...the so-called state of ‘unconscious ignorance’. During my career in high tech, critics like Archimago were ten-a-penny.....very vocal but virtually zero actual contribution. Its the experimenters, innovators and inventors that are the rarity and that drive progress, despite the critic’s best efforts to negate their work. 

 

Man do I agree with that.  people send his articles around like they were gospel. I find alot of them be half naked at best and he seems to have an opinion first then try to prove it later. 

[DarwinOSX]

57 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

I too would go with @Archimago's thoughts rather than any of his critics or nay-sayers.

 

Rather than ANY?  So he is infallible?

[rando]

5 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I read Archimago’s critique and was reminded of something Danial Boorstin wrote; “ the greatest enemy of progress is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” 

People cease to look for further information if they are arrogant enough to believe that they have all they need. 

 

Its very clear from his own writing that Archimago doesn’t know what he doesn’t know...the so-called state of ‘unconscious ignorance’. During my career in high tech, critics like Archimago were ten-a-penny.....very vocal but virtually zero actual contribution. Its the experimenters, innovators and inventors that are the rarity and that drive progress, despite the critic’s best efforts to negate their work. 

 

My first thought after reading the above was he probably feels the exact same about your work as a critic. 

 

End of the day, nobody gives anything of value away for free. Put a little more thought into this whole scenario.

[JoeWhip]

I have had two high end streamers in my system for a test. I won’t mention names though to protect the innocent. My Macbook with usb out sounded better imho. I used the usb out on each one. Took one to a friend who has the Senore. The Senore killed it. His Senore sounds wonderful. So, I have heard these fancy streamers sound better and worse than my laptop using A+. It would be nice to be able to try before you can buy.

[jhwalker]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Interesting. Probably the complete opposite of what I see @Archimago as doing. Unlike most here, he conducts thoughtful, objective, repeatable experiments to prove his points. Does he have an opinion and a bias? Sure, like most of us humans. But he spends his time testing and documenting real evidence to back it up. His contribution is the result of many tests, with published data and measurements. These include many internet blind tests with good, well-documented statistical analysis at the end. IMHO, he is one of very few who actually does real experimentation. Sure, that linked article was just an 'opinion' piece, but it's based on the totality of his published results and shouldn't be taken out of that context.

 

Agreed.  He's published literally hundreds of tests on his blog site - real, repeatable, tests - and clearly documents his results and interpretation.

[LTG2010]

19 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

Agreed.  He's published literally hundreds of tests on his blog site - real, repeatable, tests - and clearly documents his results and interpretation.

Sure but the topic is specifically about the article regarding the TLS - DS1which he and all of those in agreement with his comments have not heard. Two reliable sources who have the unit, confirm it offers an improvement over the basic machine. There is as always a diminishing return in audio a $1500 unit will rarely sound 3 times better than a $500 one.

 

19 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have had two high end streamers in my system for a test. I won’t mention names though to protect the innocent. My Macbook with usb out sounded better imho.

It really depends on the input to those streamers as to wether any improvement will be heard.

[Speedskater]

43 minutes ago, DarwinOSX said:

Rather than ANY?  So he is infallible?

No, but compared to his critics and nay-sayers he comes close.

[Samuel T Cogley]

Any critic of Archimago that doesn't bring their own data can be safely ignored.

 

[rickca]

I'd like to see Archimago review the 20K euros SGM Extreme.

[Samuel T Cogley]

6 minutes ago, rickca said:

I'd like to see Archimago review the 20K euros SGM Extreme.

 

That's easy!  Just buy him one!

[spotforscott]

22 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Any critic of Archimago that doesn't bring their own data can be safely ignored.

 

What data? All he wrote was a bunch of "musings" on the DS-1. Jibberish with nothing to back it up. This whole discussion thread is ridiculous.

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

What data? All he wrote was a bunch of "musings" on the DS-1. Jibberish with nothing to back it up. This whole discussion thread is ridiculous.

 

Take a look at the rest of his blog.

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

9 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

What data? All he wrote was a bunch of "musings" on the DS-1. Jibberish with nothing to back it up. This whole discussion thread is ridiculous.

 

To some, perhaps.  Archimago has put a lot of effort into his tests and data analysis.  It looked to me like he was picking apart a long list of what many believe are audio myths having to do with " airiness, big/deep soundstage, micro-details, "refined" treble, and of course "better" bass definition/clarity", among other things.

 

I totally understand that this vernacular is sacrosanct to some.  I personally think it's good for audiophilia to look at it with a critical eye.

[spotforscott]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Take a look at the rest of his blog.

 

The context of this thread is about the DS-1 and he offers absolutely no value in that regard. I am not saying anything about his body of work or him personally. 

[danadam]

3 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

... vernacular is sacrosanct ...

I've learned 2 new words today 📖 🙂 

[Samuel T Cogley]

5 minutes ago, spotforscott said:

The context of this thread is about the DS-1 and he offers absolutely no value in that regard.

 

Clearly, no value to you.  That doesn't mean there isn't value to others.  Some people like the idea that technical "solutions" to "problems" with computer audio are being challenged.  I certainly believe there is value in Archimago's post and any civil debate that springs from it in this thread.

 

 

[spotforscott]

2 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I totally understand that this vernacular is sacrosanct to some.  I personally think it's good for audiophilia to look at it with a critical eye.

 

Personally, I have an open mind and readily listen to opinions of those that have heard a piece of equipment. I readily mute anyone who has not heard a piece of equipment and offers opinions on it.

 

I have done a lot of A:B testing in my own system because what I hear is all that matters in the end. BTW, my ears tell me that the TLS DS-1 is a top performer. If you truly care about getting the most out of audio streaming, you should give it a listen.   

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, spotforscott said:

Personally, I have an open mind and readily listen to opinions of those that have heard a piece of equipment. I readily mute anyone who has not heard a piece of equipment and offers opinions on it.

 

I have done a lot of A:B testing in my own system because what I hear is all that matters in the end. BTW, my ears tell me that the TLS DS-1 is a top performer. If you truly care about getting the most out of audio streaming, you should give it a listen.   

 

I applaud your attempts at (hopefully blind) testing.  Can you share your testing methods?

[Blackmorec]

35 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I applaud your attempts at (hopefully blind) testing.  Can you share your testing methods?

Seriously Sam, what would be the point of Spotforscott blind testing? To save himself from himself? Who are we trying to please when we buy a new piece of kit, ourselves or a bunch of entirely anonymous forum members?

In general science works based on the observation of an unexplained phenonemon, the formulation of a hypothesis that attempts to explain the phenonomenon and some rigorous experimentation to confirm or deny the hypothesis.

What we have here is Austinpop making the observations and formulating the hypotheses based on his experience and education. Then along comes Archimago and rubbishes the whole thing because Austinpop’s hypotheses fly in the face of Archimago’s personal beliefs.  So where does that leave us in terms of explaining what’s behind Austinpop’s (and others) observations?  NowhereI Zero progress

Obviously rigorous experimentation is complex and costly so is rarely possible outside of academia. H

[spotforscott]

28 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I applaud your attempts at (hopefully blind) testing.  Can you share your testing methods?

I have nothing against blind testing but that is not how I test. 

 

My preferred method is to put the piece of equipment in my system for at least a couple of weeks, sometimes longer. Through that time, I listen casually as much as I can while it settles in. I pay a lot of attention to any changes in my ability to connect with the music. My ultimate reference is the emotional connection to the music. More toe-tapping? Want to listen longer? Looking more forward to next listening session? Mood changes affect my musical enjoyment, so this longer-term assessment is key for me personally.

 

After this I listen more critically to a handful of songs and then take the unit out of the system and listen to original piece of equipment. I sometimes repeat the cycle if I am not sure. Ultimately though, if I do not enjoy the music more with the new piece of equipment, I do not keep it.