T+A new flagship streaming dsd1024 dac

[pvanosta]

I use roon on a NAS (with Roon ROCK running on a fanless NUC). The whole os connected via ethernet to a Network DAC (in my case the Auralic Vega G1).  Would the SDV 3100HV slot in the place of the Auralic and accept DSD over ethernet in this config (and become the Roon endpoint)?

[OE333]

49 minutes ago, pvanosta said:

I use roon on a NAS (with Roon ROCK running on a fanless NUC). The whole os connected via ethernet to a Network DAC (in my case the Auralic Vega G1).  Would the SDV 3100HV slot in the place of the Auralic and accept DSD over ethernet in this config (and become the Roon endpoint)?

 

High rate DSD (such as DSD512 or DSD1024) is possible with the SD(V)3100HV  in two ways:

 

1.) Direct USB connection between server PC (Windows or Linux based) and the SD(V)3100HV, using the USB input of the SD(V)3100HV.

 

2.) Ethernet connection between server and SD(V)3100HV using the NAA built into the SD(V)3100HV.

 

In your case (solution 2) HQ Player needs to be installed on the server additionally to roon.  HQ Player will connect to the NAA in the SD(V)3100HV and use this NAA as audio endpoint.

 

The roon/HQ Player combination works very well and you will profit from the excellent sounding upsampling / DSD conversion algorithms of HQ Player.

[pvanosta]

Thanks for that. That was both informative and helpful.

[OE333]

... I forgot to mention: DSD up to DSD256 is also possible with DoP.

 

Maybe this information is useful for users with Non-Windows or Non-latest-Linux source devices.

 

[khiak]

With Tidal's App, I have been streaming my music with a iPad Pro to my Sony TV. Last month, when I auditioned the Cary 600 in my hifi system, using the Tidal's App I was able to stream my music with the iPad Pro. I bought the SD 3100 HV and received delivery yesterday. I found to my dismay, the Tidal App cannot be used to stream music to SD 3100 HV. I have to use the Tidal of the T+A MusicNavigator which is slow and not user friendly like the original Tidal App. The dealer recommend I use Roon to improve the ease of streaming which cost more $$$ in both hardwares and software. 

I have configure the Network of the SD 3100 both wire LAN and WLAN but still unable to link the original Tidal's app to the SD 3100 HV. Appreciate any help to resolve this issue. Thanks.

 

[pvanosta]

Coming back to DSD support via ethernet: I just read the review of the MP 3100 HV in Stereophile, which seems to confirm my earlier info I got from T+A themselves. The higher resolution DSD/DSF files (DSD128, DSD256 and higher) are not supported via ethernet. Only via USB. So my understanding is then: if I run Roon from NUC to MP3100HV via ethernet, Roon will down-rez the DSD128 and up. If I run Roon from my NUC via USB to the MP3100HV, the resolution is supported. Is the SD 3100 different from th MP 3100?

[firedog]

42 minutes ago, pvanosta said:

Coming back to DSD support via ethernet: I just read the review of the MP 3100 HV in Stereophile, which seems to confirm my earlier info I got from T+A themselves. The higher resolution DSD/DSF files (DSD128, DSD256 and higher) are not supported via ethernet. Only via USB. So my understanding is then: if I run Roon from NUC to MP3100HV via ethernet, Roon will down-rez the DSD128 and up. If I run Roon from my NUC via USB to the MP3100HV, the resolution is supported. Is the SD 3100 different from th MP 3100?

There's a reason people buy ethernet to USB streamers....

[pvanosta]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

There's a reason people buy ethernet to USB streamers....

Sure, but that adds another link in the chain, another conversion from one interface to another and that usually is not conducive to improvement in the sound. You could just get a top USB cable and connect the NUC to the T+A that way. I'm just trying to avoid USB as I am not a fan. YMMV.

[barrows]

3 hours ago, pvanosta said:

Sure, but that adds another link in the chain, another conversion from one interface to another and that usually is not conducive to improvement in the sound. You could just get a top USB cable and connect the NUC to the T+A that way. I'm just trying to avoid USB as I am not a fan. YMMV.

Disclaimer: I work with Sonore

 

I would suggest that your claim that another conversion in the chain is counter productive is not accurate in many cases.  Remember, we are talking about digital data right now,  Just as the Internet can make hundreds of "conversions" on the path of getting data to your home without any errors, so can Ethernet transmission in the home.  If these conversions were actually a "problem" you would never be able to stream HD movies at home, as the data would be horribly corrupted.

 

There is no actual technical reason to be "not a fan" of USB audio.  While it is true that early implementations of USB audio (and some DACs still have not got it right yet, but they are fewer and fewer every day)) were flawed, that is not the case anymore and most well designed DACs today have excellent USB inputs, which are often the best performing input for the DAC.

 

With Ethernet inputs, we are still in the early days of development for them inside of DACs.  Most audio companies do not know how to design a really good Ethernet interface and put it inside a DAC, and most companies rely on purchasing a basic, cheap, easily implemented Ethernet interface form a third party supplier (I do not know what T+A is using here, but the sample rate limitations suggest it is likely one of the simple, cheap, third party interfaces available).

 

While I am in favor of simplifying the system and less "boxes" whenever possible, the increase in performance from using a separate, well designed, Ethernet interface is very welcome to me.  As high end audio companies learn more about how to make their own, high performance, Ethernet interfaces we will see DACs with no compromise interfaces built in, but these will come at a premium price, as a really good internal Ethernet interface has requirements which will raise the price of the DAC.  Just as with USB, it may be another ten years or so before DACs with really good built in Ethernet interfaces become the norm rather than the exception.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, pvanosta said:

Coming back to DSD support via ethernet: I just read the review of the MP 3100 HV in Stereophile, which seems to confirm my earlier info I got from T+A themselves. The higher resolution DSD/DSF files (DSD128, DSD256 and higher) are not supported via ethernet. Only via USB. So my understanding is then: if I run Roon from NUC to MP3100HV via ethernet, Roon will down-rez the DSD128 and up. If I run Roon from my NUC via USB to the MP3100HV, the resolution is supported. Is the SD 3100 different from th MP 3100?

 

AFAIK, SD3100HV/SDV3100HV works up to DSD1024 over Ethernet in HQPlayer NAA case. Maybe MP3100HV has different hardware inside.

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

I do not know what T+A is using here, but the sample rate limitations suggest it is likely one of the simple, cheap, third party interfaces available

 

Depending on device model, it has NAA support that at least used to work up to DSD1024.

 

Quote

While it is true that early implementations of USB audio (and some DACs still have not got it right yet, but they are fewer and fewer every day)) were flawed, that is not the case anymore and most well designed DACs today have excellent USB inputs, which are often the best performing input for the DAC.

 

USB Audio Class just has it's limitations. For example you cannot make a device like exaSound 8-channel DACs or NADAC/Hapi/Horus with USB Audio Class...

 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

Depending on device model, it has NAA support that at least used to work up to DSD1024.

 

Awesome!  I was not aware of that given the SR limitations posted by others for DLNA/RAAT.  Then I suspect that T+A likely designed their own Ethernet implementation.  Given the attention to detail the used on the rest of this component, perhaps the Ethernet input is actually quite good...  Very few commercial DACs appear to support NAA, I know the T+A folks are fans of HQPlayer, and it is really nice to see a (another) commercial manufacturer implementing NAA.  Thanks for pointing this out Jussi.

 

Are you aware of other commercial DACs offering NAA support?

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, barrows said:

Are you aware of other commercial DACs offering NAA support?

 

exaSound PlayPoint DM is another one, rest of the devices I can remember are streamers with digital outputs.

 

[vortecjr]

On 5/18/2020 at 4:53 PM, Miska said:

 

exaSound PlayPoint DM is another one, rest of the devices I can remember are streamers with digital outputs.

 

I would categorize this as a computer and a DAC in the same enclosure. 

[vortecjr]

On 5/18/2020 at 3:29 PM, Miska said:

USB Audio Class just has it's limitations. For example you cannot make a device like exaSound 8-channel DACs or NADAC/Hapi/Horus with USB Audio Class...

 

Jussi, can you expand on this. NADAC/Hapi/Horus side which are based on a specific network protocol what would be the issue with making a multichannel USB DAC with USB Audio Class?   

[jabbr]

20 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I would categorize this as a computer and a DAC in the same enclosure. 

 

Arguably any DAC which accepts firmware is a "computer" and DAC in the same enclosure, or even on the same chip for that matter. Typically the USB interface and conversion to I2S/DSD involves some type of FSM/processing. It turns out that essentially all more than trivial FPGA implementions need some soft of processor called a "soft core". Building a SoC such as the Xilinx zynq places an FPGA and ARM cores in the same die ... the RF SoC even includes a few ADC/DAC modules intended to implement SDR (software defined radio) ... but with the FPGA, implementing the Ethernet interface becomes easy because you can load an Ethernet IP module (ie PHY) and the chip itself can interface directly to an SFP module. I have no idea how T+A specifally does this, and Intel also has its own similar chips but that is a straightforward and flexible approach. 

 

Merging also implements this approach, AFAIK, with their "ZMAN" board "Z" for "Zynq"  

 

Enabling NAA is as simple as loading a deb package onto the custom Linux.

[vortecjr]

32 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Arguably any DAC which accepts firmware is a "computer" and DAC in the same enclosure, or even on the same chip for that matter. Typically the USB interface and conversion to I2S/DSD involves some type of FSM/processing. It turns out that essentially all more than trivial FPGA implementions need some soft of processor called a "soft core". Building a SoC such as the Xilinx zynq places an FPGA and ARM cores in the same die ... the RF SoC even includes a few ADC/DAC modules intended to implement SDR (software defined radio) ... but with the FPGA, implementing the Ethernet interface becomes easy because you can load an Ethernet IP module (ie PHY) and the chip itself can interface directly to an SFP module. I have no idea how T+A specifally does this, and Intel also has its own similar chips but that is a straightforward and flexible approach. 

 

Merging also implements this approach, AFAIK, with their "ZMAN" board "Z" for "Zynq"  

 

Enabling NAA is as simple as loading a deb package onto the custom Linux.

I knew someone would argue this:) This really appears to be a computer mother board inside a DAC. You could load Windows, connect a display, connect a keyboard, etc and play Solitaire on it. I'm not saying you would or that it's a bad thing. However, as a counter point I don't consider the PS Audio network bridge a computer in the same way I just described even though it has a processor and memory. 

 

BTW I had a Merging unit here (forget what it was) that was a Roon server and it also had a standard mother board inside it. I'm not certain where Merging uses the ZMAN card.  

[Miska]

24 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I knew someone would argue this:) This really appears to be a computer mother board inside a DAC. You could load Windows, connect a display, connect a keyboard, etc and play Solitaire on it. I'm not saying you would or that it's a bad thing.

 

What is a computer mother board inside a DAC? Where you can run Windows? Certainly not the T+A in question here.

 

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

I would categorize this as a computer and a DAC in the same enclosure.

 

How is it different from a Rendu and a DAC in the same enclosure?

 

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

Jussi, can you expand on this. NADAC/Hapi/Horus side which are based on a specific network protocol what would be the issue with making a multichannel USB DAC with USB Audio Class?   

 

USB Audio Class has specification based limitations that makes it impossible.

 

24 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

BTW I had a Merging unit here (forget what it was) that was a Roon server and it also had a standard mother board inside it. I'm not certain where Merging uses the ZMAN card. 

 

AFAIK, MERGING+Player has Roon inside, NADAC doesn't and it is more like ZMAN + DAC.

 

I've been using a Merging Hapi for a while now, verifying all functionality with all HQPlayer versions, and HQPlayer OS has special support for it. You won't find ordinary computer in there.

 

[Miska]

Here is example of HQPlayer Embedded server. The whole computer fits under that heatsink. Everything else is just a development carrier board for it used for testing purposes. It can do up to DSD256 with ASDM7 modulator. It can also take USB inputs. I wouldn't call it a regular computer, although it runs HQPlayer OS....

 

[vortecjr]

I was not referring to the T+A and would categorize it similar to the PS Audio network input. A Rendu is somewhere in between a computer mother board with all the bells and whistles and the PS Audio network input. Just understand the Rendu has a USB output, but no keyboard connection, PCIE, sata, or on board video, etc. As much stuff as we excluded it’s a miracle it still works:) 

 

Im still not clear what is impossible about making a device like exaSound 8-channel with USB Audio Class? I streaming multi channel to my test DAC via USB. Exa has a proprietary multi channel driver for Linux for some unique reason particular to their USB interface. I’m just not following you. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

Arguably any DAC which accepts firmware is a "computer" and DAC in the same enclosure, or even on the same chip for that matter. Typically the USB interface and conversion to I2S/DSD involves some type of FSM/processing. It turns out that essentially all more than trivial FPGA implementions need some soft of processor called a "soft core". Building a SoC such as the Xilinx zynq places an FPGA and ARM cores in the same die ... the RF SoC even includes a few ADC/DAC modules intended to implement SDR (software defined radio) ... but with the FPGA, implementing the Ethernet interface becomes easy because you can load an Ethernet IP module (ie PHY) and the chip itself can interface directly to an SFP module. I have no idea how T+A specifally does this, and Intel also has its own similar chips but that is a straightforward and flexible approach. 

 

Merging also implements this approach, AFAIK, with their "ZMAN" board "Z" for "Zynq"  

 

Enabling NAA is as simple as loading a deb package onto the custom Linux.

Indeed the lines blur quickly these days. Consider for example Schiit Audio’s recent adoption of Microchip’s PIC32MZ EF microcontroller for their Unison USB input board. Those chips have a lots of built-in I/O (including Ethernet, USB, ADC, and even some graphics) and a good deal of memory. Microchip provides its own development environment (MPLAB), but I read about someone loading Linux into a PIC32.

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Exa has a proprietary multi channel driver for Linux for some unique reason particular to their USB interface.

 

That’s because exaSound’s USB input runs in Bulk Mode.

[vortecjr]

13 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Indeed the lines blur quickly these days. Consider for example Schiit Audio’s recent adoption of Microchip’s PIC32MZ EF microcontroller for their Unison USB input board. Those chips have a lots of built-in I/O (including Ethernet, USB, ADC, and even some graphics) and a good deal of memory. Microchip provides its own development environment (MPLAB), but I read about someone loading Linux into a PIC32.

No blur...if you buy a MB from Newegg and stuff it into a DAC it's a computer and DAC in the same enclosure. Anyway, no worries. 

[vortecjr]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

That’s because exaSound’s USB input runs in Bulk Mode.

I don't think that is the issue.

[jabbr]

22 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I was not referring to the T+A and would categorize it similar to the PS Audio network input. A Rendu is somewhere in between a computer mother board with all the bells and whistles and the PS Audio network input. Just understand the Rendu has a USB output, but no keyboard connection, PCIE, sata, or on board video, etc. As much stuff as we excluded it’s a miracle it still works:) 

 

Im still not clear what is impossible about making a device like exaSound 8-channel with USB Audio Class? I streaming multi channel to my test DAC via USB. Exa has a proprietary multi channel driver for Linux for some unique reason particular to their USB interface. I’m just not following you. 

 

Sure, just saying that there is a broad spectrum of implementations. The concept of SoC incorporating IO and processing has become ubiquitous e.g. https://www.mellanox.com/products/bluefield2-overview so that would be extraordinary overkill but literally NAA could run on the NIC -- no one would ever do that would they ... hmm ...  

 

exasound ... could do it if they wanted to, the advantage of using an FPGA is that the solution could be delivered in firmware ... but limitations all have to do with selected hardware e.g. 100m vs 1g vs 10gbe

 

Once USB4 becomes more popular and when we see USB-C input DACs things may change again -- at least then we will be able to better separate the power from data if/when desired.