If You Paid LH Labs And Haven't Received Product

[Jud]

Hi everyone -

 

We are assembling information into a spreadsheet of people who paid LH Labs for products (Geek Wave, Vi, Pulse, Source...) that were never delivered.  The spreadsheet itself doesn't identify individuals, but the products and dollar amounts will be there.  The intent is to get information from as many people as possible who are in this situation, in order to present it to the California state Attorney General's office that handles consumer affairs (California because it is where LH Labs' offices are located).  At such time as there might be any action and news to provide you, @marflao, the member who has kindly volunteered to host and assemble the spreadsheet, will have your contact information.

 

Here is the information needed, where to send it, and a link where you can view the spreadsheet:

 

 

Quote

 

Sheet has been created: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vE7_LByDDY6w8J-E-l4njfkvXcggTasrG90z11swJww/edit?usp=sharing

 

In case you want to be part of this sheet pls send me an email to defraudedbylhl at gmail dot com with the following  details:

- username (as mentioned.. it is hidden)

- "your" forum where you use the username

- from which continent you are

- which LHL device(s) you have backed and

- how much you paid for each backed device.

 

 

If you know of friends who are in this situation, please tell them.  It isn't restricted to people who are AS forum members.

 

Thank you.

[marflao]

Opened two threads in German hifi forums (hifi-forum, open-end-music) and linked to this post. 

[Jud]

I’ve got a question in to a Head-Fi mod to see whether posting information about the spreadsheet and its purpose there is permissible.

[Jud]

Head-Fi responded: They don't want a duplicate of the post above there.  Understandably the mod said they don't want to be in the middle of any potential legal dispute between LHL and the people who contributed to their campaigns.  The mod did say he thought he'd seen references to the spreadsheet in a couple of places in the LH Labs gear forums, though.  (Not sure if it's this spreadsheet or past ones, haven't had a chance to look.)

 

Anyone want to ask Audio Science Review, Super Audio Best Friends, What's Best, Hydrogen Audio, Audio Asylum, and others?  I'll see if any of the online publications would be willing to post something.  (Sorry to whoever spit out their coffee, I owe you a monitor.)

[sdolezalek]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Head-Fi .. don't want to be in the middle of any potential legal dispute between LHL and the people who contributed to their campaigns...

 

That's a weak response.  Any legal action would go to whether or not LH Labs defrauded their customers.  You are simply trying to legitimately gather information on how many customers deposited their money in the expectation of receiving a product and got nothing in return.  That, without or without fraud, is something any subscriber/visitor here or on Head-Fi should want to know about.  

 

Thanks Jud, for at least keeping this audience informed.

[noshortcuts]

I agree with sdolezalek. I don't even see a need to ask permission. These are forums and the gathering of data for a product of interest in the forums should not be a problem. But I guess it can be. But why? Surely it's not money. I doubt LHL is spending money advertising on forums, right?

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, noshortcuts said:

I agree with sdolezalek. I don't even see a need to ask permission. These are forums and the gathering of data for a product of interest in the forums should not be a problem. But I guess it can be. But why? Surely it's not money. I doubt LHL is spending money advertising on forums, right?

 

If I didn't ask permission and posted, all that would happen is the offending post would be removed anyway, and I might be banned from the forum into the bargain.  LHL might be spending money for advertising, I don't know.  There is a topic area on Head-Fi devoted to their gear; I have no idea if that entails spending money, or just having people on the forum who want to discuss their stuff.  In any case, I'll look for posts there about a spreadsheet and see whether it's ours that's referred to, or perhaps some prior spreadsheet.

[Jud]

57 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

That's a weak response.  Any legal action would go to whether or not LH Labs defrauded their customers.  You are simply trying to legitimately gather information on how many customers deposited their money in the expectation of receiving a product and got nothing in return.  That, without or without fraud, is something any subscriber/visitor here or on Head-Fi should want to know about.  

 

Thanks Jud, for at least keeping this audience informed.

 

Yes, it certainly is something anyone with a devotion to the best interests of audiophiles ought not to have a problem with.  I suppose on the other hand it's a litigious world, so wanting to stay clear of anything that looks like potential legal action is perhaps an understandable reaction.

[marflao]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

If I didn't ask permission and posted, all that would happen is the offending post would be removed anyway, and I might be banned from the forum into the bargain.  LHL might be spending money for advertising, I don't know.  There is a topic area on Head-Fi devoted to their gear; I have no idea if that entails spending money, or just having people on the forum who want to discuss their stuff.  In any case, I'll look for posts there about a spreadsheet and see whether it's ours that's referred to, or perhaps some prior spreadsheet.

 

We linked on HF in the various LHL threads to the "spreadsheet" post in the other AS thread. 

But yeah... they will sink into oblivion soon I presume. A dedicated thread would create more awareness. 

 

[marflao]

Posted on instagram

#defraudedbylhl

[Blake]

I wonder if Indiegogo would be willing to provide their records to help us?  I will ask.

 

From a public relations perspective it makes sense.  

 

[noshortcuts]

On 2/10/2019 at 8:09 AM, Blake said:

I wonder if Indiegogo would be willing to provide their records to help us?  I will ask.

 

From a public relations perspective it makes sense.  

 

Didn't Jarek say that LHL would be glad to provide help (in the "no delivery" thread)? I actually think so - but could have dreamt that (because I thought I must be dreaming at the time).

[Jud]

7 hours ago, noshortcuts said:

Didn't Jarek say that LHL would be glad to provide help (in the "no delivery" thread)? I actually think so - but could have dreamt that (because I thought I must be dreaming at the time).

 

He said here and at Head-Fi that they supported efforts by others to collect the data, including this one.  I don’t recall seeing anything that said LHL would help provide information.  I don’t think that’s necessary if IGG would agree to do so.

[Blake]

No response yet from Indiegogo concerning my question of whether they will help us by providing IGG's records of contributions.  I will keep trying.  I mentioned our plan to turn over this data to the California AG's office. 

 

IGG really should provide assistance when a Campaign Owner steals money from contributors.  

 

 

[Marvey]

On 2/9/2019 at 3:50 PM, Jud said:

Anyone want to ask Super Audio Best Friends, I'll see if any of the online publications would be willing to post something.  (Sorry to whoever spit out their coffee, I owe you a monitor.)

 

 

We're in. 

 

I don't have a stake in this, other than supporting LHLabs in the past and hoping for their success. I am disturbed at the millions of dollars taken in without the delivery of a product - something that I did not realize until I searched up indiegogo yesterday.

 

I would suggest to whoever wants to lead this effort to create a dedicated website that tells the story, dox the heck out of Larry (not for mean-spiritedness, but for proper identification of the culprit), cites the failed projects (or scams), and provide links to the appropriate discussion forums. You have a tell a story and it can't be in a bunch of different forums to get appropriate attention. Name this website "www.scammedbylhlabs.org" or something like that.

[PorkChop]

I don't understand the point of the spreadsheet.  There are probably 100's of orders from people who don't follow audiophile forums and so the total will be way off. 

[tmtomh]

17 minutes ago, PorkChop said:

I don't understand the point of the spreadsheet.  There are probably 100's of orders from people who don't follow audiophile forums and so the total will be way off. 

 

Even with that, if the spreadsheet continues to grow, it could be sufficient to get the CA AG's office interested. The point isn't for it to be complete or accurate as to the total number of people and dollar amount.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Marvey said:

 

We're in. 

 

I don't have a stake in this, other than supporting LHLabs in the past and hoping for their success. I am disturbed at the millions of dollars taken in without the delivery of a product - something that I did not realize until I searched up indiegogo yesterday.

 

I would suggest to whoever wants to lead this effort to create a dedicated website that tells the story, dox the heck out of Larry (not for mean-spiritedness, but for proper identification of the culprit), cites the failed projects (or scams), and provide links to the appropriate discussion forums. You have a tell a story and it can't be in a bunch of different forums to get appropriate attention. Name this website "www.scammedbylhlabs.org" or something like that.

 

My thought is that some little orphan website sitting out there amongst all the tens of millions is less likely to get attention from high end audiophiles scammed by IGG crowdfunding projects than posts on audiophile websites and at IGG.  I can't see any objection, though, if someone wants to do it.

 

Audio Science Review, anyone?

 

Then my intent (unless, as always, someone beats me to it) is to ask the web-based audio publications - Twittering Machines, Audiostream, Stereophile, others - if they'd post a link, though I'm not at all hopeful there.

 

@PorkChop, the idea is to make it very convenient for the AG's office to see that there are lots of people who would like to actively pursue this and have already provided contact information, then point them to where they can conveniently find the rest (IGG records).  An individual calling the AG won't make an impression, I don't think.  A list of hundreds might.

 

[noshortcuts]

I would imagine that if the AG office does become interested that they could subpoena the records from Indiegogo to help identify all those who contributed and haven't received product(s).

[Bob Stern]

Is IGG a widely used acronym for Indiegogo outside of this thread?

 

If so, that's unfortunate because IGG Software is the name of the reputable developer of the excellent Mac accounting program "Banktivity".

[Jud]

I know this thread wasn't the first time I saw "IGG" for Indiegogo.

[NOMBEDES]

17 hours ago, PorkChop said:

I don't understand the point of the spreadsheet.  There are probably 100's of orders from people who don't follow audiophile forums and so the total will be way off. 

 

I doubt that anyone who would order "audiophile" gear, and, to the general public, specialized LH audio gear (existing or not), would not have at least a passing interest in audiophile forums.   

[PorkChop]

20 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

 

I doubt that anyone who would order "audiophile" gear, and, to the general public, specialized LH audio gear (existing or not), would not have at least a passing interest in audiophile forums.    

 

Dunno about that.  The reach of LHL's IGG campaigns was pretty massive and snared several levels of audio enthusiasts.  The original low-end Wave was early priced at only about $250 as I recall. 

 

On the Wave IGG comment board, new names pop in over the years who clearly haven't been following the proceedings or care about DAC chips, resistors, distortion measurements, etc. ("Can you send me the player I paid for please?").

 

 

[NOMBEDES]

@PorkChop   Good point. But if I were going to buy even a $250 player.  I would at least check out the internet to read a few reviews.

 

 

 

[noshortcuts]

3 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

@PorkChop   Good point. But if I were going to buy even a $250 player.  I would at least check out the internet to read a few reviews.

And if you had checked reviews at the time you would have found no reviews but a BUNCH of very fancy and convincing marketing about how the Wave was soon to be built and shipped as the best player ever. Also, there would have been 100s of others who already put down money and were involved in positive comments and constructive feedback to make the Wave even better and you would have seen LHL encourage and respond and promote many of those ideas as if they were making them happen in real time. And then  you  would have thought, "I better get in on this while I can, while the prices are low, before the campaign ends, while I don't have to wait too long". And after you chose your level of investment the fancy marketing would continue and offer upgrade after upgrade to squeeze more from you. You may fall those upgrades because others are falling for them and because they come with videos of Larry sitting at a computer showing how each upgrade magically makes the Wave even better... and so on.