Qobuz streaming MQA CD's?

[Jud]

23 minutes ago, crenca said:

Even if you end up being "ok" streaming MQA from a market/consumer positioning standpoint, one would hope you did not come to this conclusion by accident.

 

I would hope they do not come to this conclusion, period. 🙂

 

@dmackta, thank you for your transparency and your prompt, active engagement.  

 

Many of us on this forum are quite concerned about MQA from a number of viewpoints, including (1) sound quality (I am among those who feel MQA doesn't sound as good as hi res or even Redbook; since what "sold" me and presumably others on Qobuz was sound quality, this is important); (2) authenticity and provenance; and (3) last but certainly not least, the potential for MQA technology to be used to exert unfair market and content control, which I perceive as being antithetical to Qobuz' position of being fair and open with its customers.

 

I therefore hope you will be able to eliminate MQA from your system, using @mansr's tool or otherwise, so Qobuz does not unintentionally wind up contributing financially to MQA.

 

Thanks for listening.  🙂

[dmackta]

I would encourage you to also investigate this issue directly with the labels who appear to be providing these files in lieu of redbook CD audio. 

[Jud]

Just now, dmackta said:

I would encourage you to also investigate this issue directly with the labels who appear to be providing these files in lieu of redbook CD audio. 

 

Absolutely.  I don't know if Qobuz would be willing to engage in an interchange of that information with people on this forum, but it might be something to consider.

[crenca]

19 minutes ago, dmackta said:

I would encourage you to also investigate this issue directly with the labels who appear to be providing these files in lieu of redbook CD audio. 

 

It is evident that 2L is "all in" with MQA.  As they admit here:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-subscriptions-questions/58691/15?

 

"...our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services..."

 

Not only did they apparently not inform you, they made this decision on their own and are perfectly "ok" with it.  They are either are unaware of any legal/IP issues, or believe this is your problem to solve.  They believe you should adjust your consumer and "Hi Res" market position to fit their understanding of what MQA is and how it fits into the market.

 

Investigation complete! 😉😁

 

Unfortunately, the reality is the ball is in your court.  Are you going to stream MQA?

 

 

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, dmackta said:

We are exploring this now as it hasn't come up until the Roon integration. Our apps see and play the file as regular CD quality. Our supply chain team will speak to the label. We aren't an MQA partner and offering MQA is not on our roadmap at this time.

 

Lumin devices have supported MQA for over a year and Qobuz for several years - odd that no Lumin user has reported the same issue until now.

[Mayfair]

It's not only 2L.  Qobuz used to have the un-MQA-ed version of Radka Toneff's Fairytales (Odin label) on their site last year until it was 'disappeared' by  

https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/fairytales-original-master-edition-mqa-steve-dobrogosz-radka-toneff/czn9zsef6y7pc

 

[crenca]

By the way folks, this decision:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-subscriptions-questions/58691/15?

 

"...our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services..."

 

by 2L has other implications.  If you stream Tidal "Hi Fi" 16/44 2L track, you are not really getting 16/44 - your getting MQA-CD.  If you stream a 2L track on Spotify, Pandora, Apple, Amazon, fill_in_the_blank {I don't actually know whether any of these services host 2L material}, your not really getting a 16/44 track compressed by mp3/AAC, your getting an MQA-CD compressed into mp3/AAC.  I wonder if Spotify/Pandora/Apple/Amazon are aware they are now MQA streaming partners?

 

Remember the good old days when MQA was "just another choice"?

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, Mayfair said:

It's not only 2L.  Qobuz used to have the un-MQA-ed version of Radka Toneff's Fairytales (Odin label) on their site last year until it was 'disappeared' by  

https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/fairytales-original-master-edition-mqa-steve-dobrogosz-radka-toneff/czn9zsef6y7pc

That's one of the albums that have been specially remastered for the MQA release. It's not obvious that what you get there is actually MQA-encoded as they even made an LP from that remastering. Either way, pulling the original version is still bad, of course.

[Mayfair]

24 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's one of the albums that have been specially remastered for the MQA release. It's not obvious that what you get there is actually MQA-encoded as they even made an LP from that remastering. Either way, pulling the original version is still bad, of course.

All of a sudden, I realized where I'd seen this plot before...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_the_Body_Snatchers

[damien78]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Maybe it relies on some metadata to identify MQA titles. @damien78 would know.

This is correct.

Audirvana Plus is not processing all files through the MQA decoder (contrary to some other player?), but only the ones hinted to be MQA from their metadata. For 1. optimising the audio signal path 2. Speeding the file loading by not trying to find a MQA marker when knowing there is none

 

These metadata hints that tell the file is likely MQA can be:

1. File name, with .mqa, or .mql just before the file extension

2. a MQA tag in the metadata (e.g. the original sample rate)

3. track information from the streaming service (TIDAL)

 

That's why as these are not present in the files streamed by Qobuz, such MQA-CD track is played as normal PCM track.

Moreover, from Qobuz positioning on hires FLAC PCM files, this would make no sense to process their tracks through the MQA decoder thinking there could be a MQA track streamed.

[Hugo9000]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

It is evident that 2L is "all in" with MQA.  As they admit here:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-subscriptions-questions/58691/15?

 

"...our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services..."

 

Not only did they apparently not inform you, they made this decision on their own and are perfectly "ok" with it.  They are either are unaware of any legal/IP issues, or believe this is your problem to solve.  They believe you should adjust your consumer and "Hi Res" market position to fit their understanding of what MQA is and how it fits into the market.

 

Investigation complete! 😉😁

 

Unfortunately, the reality is the ball is in your court.  Are you going to stream MQA?

 

 

Someone should inform HDTracks and any other hi-rez retailers so that they can pull 2L releases from their site, as none of their stated resolutions are valid, apparently.  Wasn't there a big brouhaha over other labels and upsampling/etc.?  Although in this case, it's a tempest in a teacup, as this company has what? a few dozen releases?  Funny how much attention a few tiny companies are getting, and the influence attempted over the rest of the music industry and listening public.  

 

Didn't Sony use some kind of perceptual coding for their MiniDisc format?  I'm sure someone out there found that to be more "musical" so why don't we do lossy compression of everything to that format, and then upsample it to DXD and sell it as the ultimate experience?   

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Hugo9000 said:

Someone should inform HDTracks and any other hi-rez retailers so that they can pull 2L releases from their site, as none of their stated resolutions are valid, apparently.

The Cheskys are all in with MQA themselves, so I doubt they'd care.

 

1 minute ago, Hugo9000 said:

Didn't Sony use some kind of perceptual coding for their MiniDisc format?

Yes, ATRAC.

[kumakuma]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

The Cheskys are all in with MQA themselves, so I doubt they'd care.

 

Scroggy has said this on several occasions in the past but they don't appear to be releasing any of their own music in this format:

 

http://www.hdtracks.com/music/label/view/id/1/?dir=desc&order=release_date

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Scroggy has said this on several occasions in the past but they don't appear to be releasing any of their own music in this format:

 

http://www.hdtracks.com/music/label/view/id/1/?dir=desc&order=release_date

In their own words:

"Chesky Records prides itself on recording music in the highest possible resolution, providing the music to you in as close proximity to that as possible, and always pushing the boundaries of ways that technology can enhance the listener experience. The launch of our new MQA CD is done to this end."

 

They seem to have a handful of MQA CDs on the market, but I can't find any MQA files on HDtracks.

[crenca]

Also, 2L claims they record everything in DXD first (I can neither confirm nor deny this).  Also, they so far are offering real "hi res" PCM at various levels.  

 

2L's current practice of releasing MQA CD in place of 16/44 to streaming services appears to be limited to the streaming services (and not downloads at HDTracks).

 

@mansr, have you ever run a MQA CD track through mp3/AAC, and then analyzed it?  Just wondering if there are any tells left that could be used to verify if Spotify and the like are streaming compressed MQA CD tracks.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

@mansr, have you ever run a MQA CD track through mp3/AAC, and then analyzed it?  Just wondering if there are any tells left that could be used to verify if Spotify and the like are streaming compressed MQA CD tracks.

I haven't tried it, but I suspect the hump at 15 kHz and up might survive the process.

[AudioDoctor]

This is very disappointing. Like Jud I find the standard PCM FLAC files to sound much better than the MQA-ed files, so much so that the difference was immediately noticeable. I will definitely be avoiding labels that do this, especially the ones that try to sneak it in.

[Taz777]

2 hours ago, crenca said:

If you stream Tidal "Hi Fi" 16/44 2L track, you are not really getting 16/44 - your getting MQA-CD

 

?

 

I've just searched for 2L and listed all of the available tracks on Tidal desktop. I've found 19 tracks from '2L Audiophile Reference Recordings', All are Tidal Masters. There is no HiFi 2L track on Tidal that I have been able to find.

 

As for Tidal HiFi, if the track and the DAC shows 44.1kHz 16-bit, what is really being delivered?

 

Someone must be telling an untruth!

 

https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/203055911-High-Fidelity-HiFi-Sound

 

• High Fidelity (HiFi) Sound

• High fidelity sound is uncompressed music files. TIDAL HiFi relies on FLAC, a more robust and realistic streaming format. MP3 files are compressed to decrease file size but also take out any extra details which can cut quality. FLAC offers CD-quality audio in its purest form.

  With a TIDAL HiFi subscription, you have the ability to stream a large number of tracks in lossless quality. Lossless content is uncompressed CD quality music, you hear the music the way the artists intended for their content to be heard.

  TIDAL now offers Master Quality Authenticated technology, which is a way of compressing digital music without limitations to deliver guaranteed master-quality sound. This allows subscribers to hear music just as it was recorded in the studio; an audio experience as the artist intended.

[AudioDoctor]

4 hours ago, dmackta said:

I would encourage you to also investigate this issue directly with the labels who appear to be providing these files in lieu of redbook CD audio. 

 

5 hours ago, dmackta said:

Our system has no way to tell if a 16/44 file supplied to us by a label includes this MQA-CD material. We are exploring this now as it hasn't come up until the Roon integration. Our apps see and play the file as regular CD quality. Our supply chain team will speak to the label. We aren't an MQA partner and offering MQA is not on our roadmap at this time.

 

 

 

I see what you wrote here, and I can see how from your point of view as stated here and elsewhere you would come to this conclusion, but what that doesn't explain is how this file is being identified by ROON as a 24/176 and played as an MQA file. I'll share this screenshot again.

 

 

[austinpop]

@David Craff

 

While it's certainly possible some labels may be sneaking in MQA files in the guise of 24/44.1 or 24/48 hi-res, I strongly suspect that with 2L the issue with their Redbook 16/44.1 files is the inclusion of these 2 tags:

• ENCODER
• ORIGINALSAMPLERATE

I see this even with the sample files I download from the 2L Testbench. For example: 

 

I went in and remove the 2 tags, and now it looks like this:

 

This is very similar to what I see in Qobuz. Example:

 

There are actually 2 issues here. Let's unpack:

1. Roon thinks this is a 24/192 file, due to the Qobuz API showing download resolutions, not streaming resolutions. I know you are working to fix this. So in fact, as you said, since you don't have (yet) hi-res streaming rights for 2L, the streaming file is actually redbook.
2. But then when you see Roon's handling of the file, it seems to think the file is MQA - due to those tags

What I'd suggested when I reported this to the US beta team is to run some automation to strip these tags, at least from 2L - or better yet, have 2L fix it as the supplier. What I don't understand is - even if Roon was confused into thinking it was an MQA encoded file, how did it pass MQA Authentication? Is that code so easy to spoof? Don't know, don't really care.

 

Final point, David - I would agree that you guys at Qobuz need to add bogus MQA detection into the scans you run on your suppliers' content. 

[austinpop]

26 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

 

I see what you wrote here, and I can see how from your point of view as stated here and elsewhere you would come to this conclusion, but what that doesn't explain is how this file is being identified by ROON as a 24/176 and played as an MQA file. I'll share this screenshot again.

 

 

 

I see you posted this while I was composing my post immediately below yours. The snippet below should explain.

 

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Let's unpack:

1. Roon thinks this is a 24/192 file, due to the Qobuz API showing download resolutions, not streaming resolutions. I know you are working to fix this. So in fact, as you said, since you don't have (yet) hi-res streaming rights for 2L, the streaming file is actually redbook.
2. But then when you see Roon's handling of the file, it seems to think the file is MQA - due to those tags

 

[mansr]

31 minutes ago, austinpop said:

While it's certainly possible some labels may be sneaking in MQA files in the guise of 24/44.1 or 24/48 hi-res, I strongly suspect that with 2L the issue with their Redbook 16/44.1 files is the inclusion of these 2 tags:

• ENCODER
• ORIGINALSAMPLERATE

The 2L files streamed on Qobuz are definitely MQA. We have already verified this, and Morten Lindberg himself has admitted it on the Roon forum.

[rickca]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

The 2L files streamed on Qobuz are definitely MQA. We have already verified this, and Morten Lindberg himself has admitted it on the Roon forum.

Then Qobuz really should use your tool to avoid ingesting such adulterated material.  

[mansr]

59 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I see what you wrote here, and I can see how from your point of view as stated here and elsewhere you would come to this conclusion, but what that doesn't explain is how this file is being identified by ROON as a 24/176 and played as an MQA file. I'll share this screenshot again.

 

2L has, without telling anyone, decided to deliver MQA whether you want it not. Roon apparently sends everything through the MQA decoder which then flags any such content regardless of source.

[crenca]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

 

I see what you wrote here, and I can see how from your point of view as stated here and elsewhere you would come to this conclusion, but what that doesn't explain is how this file is being identified by ROON as a 24/176 and played as an MQA file. I'll share this screenshot again.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, mansr said:

2L has, without telling anyone, decided to deliver MQA whether you want it not. Roon apparently sends everything through the MQA decoder which then flags any such content regardless of source.

 

I went in to Roon and verified that my current zone had MQA disabled, and the above album is identified as "FLAC 44.1khz 24 bit, MQA 352.8".  I then went in to settings and enabled "MQA Core Decoder", and then went back into the album.  Still identified as "FLAC 44.1khz 24 bit, MQA 352.8"

 

So there probably is something to @austinpoppost about tagging.  That said, we also know what we know about how MQA works, its misuse of resolution/sample rates, etc.  We also know that MQA is more than tagging scheme.  2L have been explicit in what they are supplying Qobuz and all the other streaming services including the big boys (i.e. Spotify, etc.)