SACD PC-PLAYBACK (DSD layer) is possible, after all ...

[Nexus3]

Good evening fellow audiophiliacs,

 

normally I don't bother with the CD-DA layer of Super Audio Compact Discs at all (occasionally a PCM rip for my car stereo).

Today I skipped the regular SACD-Ripping process of producing playable material for the PC and inserted the SACD into one of my optical drives for a quick listening test.

 

Imagine the shock and awe moment I had, when the disc DID NOT turn up as the expected ~500MB CD (PCM layer), but as a 2.4GB DVD instead:

 

Immediately I checked the disc in 4 other drives (2 BD-RE, 1 DVD+R & 1x DVD-ROM), the result was always the same the hybrid disc comes up as CD-Audio (=the expected behaviour).

Only my Toshiba HD DVD-ROM (IDE->SATA) drive and the Microsoft XBOX 360 external HD-DVD drive (USB) can read the DSD layer.

 

 

To make a long story short here are the requirements for direct SACD Playback / Ripping on a PC:

 

 

1. a Super Audio-CD with additional file systems (e.g. UDF) (presumably releases from the early years of the format, lacking some or all of the three encryption and copy management properties)

2. a HD-DVD ROM drive (dig out your Xbox 360 addon drives!)

3. a neat piece of SW for playback (foobar2000 + SACD plugin) or ripping (SACDExtractGUI)

 

 

On Linux or macOS you would have to rip the SACD to ISO first, as sacd_extract can't open the disc directly (yet).

disc read attempt:

libsacdread: Can't read Master TOC.

 

ISO readout:

Disc Information:

	Version:  1.00
	Creation date: 2000-03-23
	Catalog Number: SACD 83493 SA   
	Locale: en
	Title: Merry-Go-Round
	Artist: Freddy Cole
	Publisher: Telarc
	Copyright: Telarc

Album Information:

	Catalog Number: SACD 83493 SA   
	Sequence Number: 1
	Set Size: 1
	Locale: en
	Title: Merry-Go-Round
	Artist: Freddy Cole
	Publisher: Telarc
	Copyright: Telarc

Area count: 1
	Area Information [0]:

	Version:  1.00
	Area Description Phonetic: Freddy Cole
	Track Count: 11
	Speaker config: 2 Channel
	Track list [0]:
		Title[0]: Watching You, Watching Me
		Performer[0]: Freddy Cole
		Title[1]: It's Impossible
		Performer[1]: Freddy Cole
		Title[2]: Merry-Go-Round
		Performer[2]: Freddy Cole
		Title[3]: I Remember You
		Performer[3]: Freddy Cole
		Title[4]: Forgive My Heart
		Performer[4]: Freddy Cole
		Title[5]: Through a Long And Sleepless Night
		Performer[5]: Freddy Cole
		Title[6]: If You Went Away
		Performer[6]: Freddy Cole
		Title[7]: Take a Little Time To Smile
		Performer[7]: Freddy Cole
		Title[8]: I Realize Now / I Miss You So
		Performer[8]: Freddy Cole
		Title[9]: Smoke Gets in Your Eyes
		Performer[9]: Freddy Cole
		Title[10]: You're Sensational
		Performer[10]: Freddy Cole

 

 

 

Last but not least, I hope this thread can serve as a catalogue, where users can report in their findings on "consumer-friendly" SACD-releases.

 

 

Good night!

 

 

[mansr]

Either your disc is an anomaly without the pit modulation normally used, or the Xbox drive supports SACD without this being documented. Do you know if the drive is from an early production run? It's possible they initially intended to support SACD, then decided to drop it but only after initial production had already taken place.

 

Optically, SACD uses the same red laser as plain DVD, so the HD-DVD capability should be irrelevant.

[Nexus3]

6 minutes ago, mansr said:

Either your disc is an anomaly

 

Possible, after all the recording [DSD] was done 1999 and the disc came out in 2000. On the other hand it is from TELARC and this label normally does know its trade.

 

6 minutes ago, mansr said:

 the Xbox drive supports SACD without this being documented. Do you know if the drive is from an early production run? It's possible they initially intended to support SACD, then decided to drop it but only after initial production had already taken place.

 

 

I have verified this behaviour on two HD-DVD drives: the Toshiba SD-802A (internal HD-DVD PC drive) and the MS Xbox 360 external HD-DVD drive.

 

6 minutes ago, mansr said:

Optically, SACD uses the same red laser as plain DVD, so the HD-DVD capability should be irrelevant.

 

I tend to disagree, as HD-DVD had some hybrid discs editions back in the time:

 

1. the Combo Disc - one side HD-DVD the other DVD-Video

2. the Twin Disc - up to three layers on one side, offering one layer for DVD

 

Maybe this functionality kicks in, when it comes to "ignoring" the inferior layer.

 

 

Anyway we shall see whether Mr. Cole is going to get some company or not 😏.

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, Nexus3 said:

I have verified this behaviour on two HD-DVD drives: the Toshiba SD-802A (internal HD-DVD PC drive) and the MS Xbox 360 external HD-DVD drive.

The Xbox drive is probably made by Toshiba. Those drives might even be exactly the same inside.

 

5 minutes ago, Nexus3 said:

I tend to disagree, as HD-DVD had some hybrid discs editions back in the time

I don't see the relevance. HD-DVD uses the same blue laser as Blu-ray. It won't be involved in reading an SACD.

[Nexus3]

There ought to be a logic within the drive's fw to check for multiple layers on a disc and then to prefer one of them.

 

I assume this makes the DVD (larger) layer the preferred choice for the HD-DVD drive over the CD layer.

 

 

As other (=regular) Hybrid SACDs only show up as CD-Audio within the HD-DVD drives, the real game changer ought to be the additional file systems (UDF+ISO9660) and the missing copy protection.

 

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, Nexus3 said:

There ought to be a logic within the drive's fw to check for multiple layers on a disc and then to prefer one of them.

 

I assume this makes the DVD (larger) layer the preferred choice for the HD-DVD drive over the CD layer.

 

As other (=regular) Hybrid SACDs only show up as CD-Audio within the HD-DVD drives, the real game changer ought to be the additional file systems (UDF+ISO9660) and the missing copy protection.

The drive doesn't know or care about filesystems. There is obviously some order of preference between formats. Even with a single-format disc, the drive has to try them all until it finds one that works. What makes an SACD unreadable to a regular DVD drive is the pit modulation creating an invalid signal.

 

To find out what's happening here, we need a larger sample of both discs and drives.

[tmtomh]

This is fascinating - and as noted it will take further sampling an experimentation to determine if it's the SACD or the drive(s), and if it's the latter, is it all HD-DVD drives, or just one model.

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

This is fascinating - and as noted it will take further sampling an experimentation to determine if it's the SACD or the drive(s), and if it's the latter, is it all HD-DVD drives, or just one model.

My LG all-format drive does not (typically) read SACDs.

[One and a half]

Gearslutz has a post (which is elusive atm to find...) that detailed a list of BD players that could read authored SACD. The idea for a pro was to author an SACD and rather than spend $ on a test SACD, the drives could at least play to test the mix/mastering.

 

I'm wondering if some of the same drives migrated to PC drives due to oversupply or shortfall for production issues. 

 

The TOC published by @Nexus3, is convincing that if picky SACD_Extract can read the disc, the ripping is next. 

[mansr]

26 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Gearslutz has a post (which is elusive atm to find...) that detailed a list of BD players that could read authored SACD. The idea for a pro was to author an SACD and rather than spend $ on a test SACD, the drives could at least play to test the mix/mastering. 

That's a different thing again. A properly licensed SACD drive is supposed to reject discs that don't have all the copy protection features. For instance, if an SACD is ripped on a PS3, then burned to a regular DVD-R, that same PS3 will not read the copy. Some players apparently, whether by design or accident, ignore this requirement. While useful for testing a mastering before sending it for production, this is of no use in ripping discs with all the protections in place.

[lucretius]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

The Xbox drive is probably made by Toshiba. Those drives might even be exactly the same inside.

 

Seems you are correct:

 

http://www.liquidationcenter.ca/product/a-lot-of-3-microsoft-byc-sd-802a-hd-dvd-rom-drive/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_HD_DVD_Player

[Phthalocyanine]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Either your disc is an anomaly without the pit modulation normally used, or the Xbox drive supports SACD without this being documented.

You've laid out the possibilities clearly.  But by possibility 2, do you mean support SACD in the sense of having the encryption keys for SACD?

 

 @Nexus3 did you rip an iso of this disc and then burn it to DVD (creating a SACD-R) and then try to play it on a SACD-R compatible deck? Or did you play the ripped iso with some software that plays ripped SACD iso.s?

 

The thing I'm getting at is that I thought that in addition to the pit-modulations which generally prevents detection of the SACD layer by regular DVD drives, a commercial (unripped) SACD is also encrypted.  So seeing it is only the first step.  You have to de-crypt it to do anything with the data.  SACD extract has the encryption keys to de-crypt.

 

So what did you run to decrypt this SACD disc?

[Nexus3]

5 hours ago, tmtomh said:

This is fascinating - and as noted it will take further sampling an experimentation to determine if it's the SACD or the drive(s), and if it's the latter, is it all HD-DVD drives, or just one model.

 

It's the COMBINATION, as I have tested this "special hybrid SACD" in 4 other optical drives where only the CD layer appeared.

Also tried other SACDs in the HD-DVD drives to no avail [CD layer was read].

 

[Nexus3]

5 hours ago, Phthalocyanine said:

 

 

So what did you run to decrypt this SACD disc?

 

I doubt that the disc is encrypted at all, as I can play it through fb2k right away.

 

The ripping was primarly done to feed the ISO to sacdextract and confirm that the disc layout adheres to ScarletBook specs.

 

Let's assume the whole thing is a mastering error, back when it was authored [April 2000] every single DVD drive was aiming for the CD layer, so there was no way this anomaly would have been detectable at that time.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well...

 

It's a 'no go' with my old LG GGC-H20L Blu-ray/HD DVD drive. So I'm still using the OPPO BDP-103...

[Nexus3]

Hello again,

 

here is the 2nd "unprotected SACD" discovered so far:

 

 

Maximum ripping speed was 5 MB/sec for a total file size of 2.21GB (it's just a STEREO release after all):

 

 

SACDExtractGUI v0.1-5-g97d05f95
https://github.com/setmind/SACDExtractGUI.git

Use of this program that results in any form of copyright infringement is strictly prohibited.

[RUNNING][sacd_extract.exe, -i, E:\DSD\DISC1.ISO, -P]

Disc Information:

	Version:  1.00
	Creation date: 1999-12-13
	Catalog Number: CD-83491        
	Category: General
	Genre: Pop Music
	Locale: en
	Title: Kisses in the Rain
	Artist: John Pizzarelli

Album Information:

	Catalog Number: SACD-83491      
	Sequence Number: 1
	Set Size: 1
	Category: General
	Genre: Pop Music
	Locale: en
	Title: Kisses in the Rain
	Artist: John Pizzarelli

Area count: 1
	Area Information [0]:

	Version:  1.00
	Track Count: 16
	Speaker config: 2 Channel
	Track list [0]:
		Title[0]: From Monday On
		Performer[0]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[1]: When I Take My Sugar To Tea
		Performer[1]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[2]: I'm In The Mood For Love
		Performer[2]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[3]: I Can't Get Up The Nerve
		Performer[3]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[4]: I Got Rhythm
		Performer[4]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[5]: When Lights Are Low
		Performer[5]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[6]: I Thought About You
		Performer[6]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[7]: Should I?
		Performer[7]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[8]: Don't Be That Way
		Performer[8]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[9]: I Could Have Told You So
		Performer[9]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[10]: Kisses In The Rain
		Performer[10]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[11]: Oscar Night
		Performer[11]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[12]: Polka Dots And Moonbeams
		Performer[12]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[13]: Baby Just Come Home To Me
		Performer[13]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[14]: A Lifetime Or Two
		Performer[14]: John Pizzarelli
		Title[15]: I Wouldn't Trade You
		Performer[15]: John Pizzarelli


[DONE]

 

Conclusion so far:

• Unprotected discs and HD DVD drives are the way to go for PC based processing (playback / ripping).
• Still aiming for early TELARC Super Audio CD releases (1999, 2000 maybe even 2001).

 

Additional observations & considerations:

• Ripping SACDs to ISO (the traditional way via sacd_extract) also maintains / copies any filesystem present. This could prove useful in finding additional unprotected SACDs. Audiophiles with a huge ISO collection could "scan" their backups with any ISO viewer at hand (e.g. IsoBuster or Cyberlink ISO viewer).
• There are some protected SACDs carrying additional file systems, so their presence is NOT enough to make those discs readable by HD DVD-ROM drives. The file systems might have to be there, but the copy protection has to be missing IN ANY CASE.

 

Over and out.

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Nexus3 said:

Ripping SACDs to ISO (the traditional way via sacd_extract) also maintains / copies any filesystem present. This could prove useful in finding additional unprotected SACDs. Audiophiles with a huge ISO collection could "scan" their backups with any ISO viewer at hand (e.g. IsoBuster or Cyberlink ISO viewer).

I am somewhat curious but, frankly, what would motivate those of us "with a huge ISO collection" to bother?

[Miska]

Hmmh, looks like I have to dig out my old Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive from the storage and see what happens! 

 

[Nexus3]

3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

what would motivate those of us "with a huge ISO collection" to bother?

 

Other than helping in compiling the ultimate list of "untarnished SACDs", I can think of none.

[mansr]

5 hours ago, Nexus3 said:

Ripping SACDs to ISO (the traditional way via sacd_extract) also maintains / copies any filesystem present. This could prove useful in finding additional unprotected SACDs. Audiophiles with a huge ISO collection could "scan" their backups with any ISO viewer at hand (e.g. IsoBuster or Cyberlink ISO viewer).

That would tell you precisely nothing. The ripped image is already decrypted.

[Kal Rubinson]

12 minutes ago, Nexus3 said:

Other than helping in compiling the ultimate list of "untarnished SACDs", I can think of none.

I am afraid that I don't see the value in it.

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

That would tell you precisely nothing. The ripped image is already decrypted.

Well, that too.

[Nexus3]

Just now, mansr said:

That would tell you precisely nothing. The ripped image is already decrypted.

 

It would significantly narrow down the candidate list, since SACDs containing file systems are quite rare. By checking "just" the ISOs you would only try the "positive discs" for HD DVD drive readout.

[Phthalocyanine]

4 minutes ago, Nexus3 said:

since SACDs containing file systems are quite rare

That is something that remains to be discovered.

 

In helping to rip a large classical music collection of SACDs for a friend, I saw file systems showing up fairly regularly, especially for Philips label classical recordings.  All the SACD with file systems I have seen have had "Philips" as the authoring software in the metadata you can see in Isobuster (never Sony, for example).

[mansr]

10 hours ago, Nexus3 said:

It would significantly narrow down the candidate list, since SACDs containing file systems are quite rare. By checking "just" the ISOs you would only try the "positive discs" for HD DVD drive readout.

What makes you think there's any correlation between discs having a filesystem and being readable bot the Xbox drive? The things preventing a regular DVD drive reading and SACD are encryption and pit modulation, both below the level of a filesystem, if any.

 

My guess is that these special discs are missing the encryption but do have pit modulation. That makes them utterly unreadable for a regular drive, while a drive that can deal with it would need no further firmware support to decrypt the data. The other way around, encryption but no pit modulation, would let any drive read a stream of nonsense, which it would happily do and not fall back on the CD layer.

 

It is of course possible that all the discs that got mastered without encryption also happen to have a filesystem. However, you'd need a sample size much larger than 2 to make such an inference.

[mansr]

Well, I'll be damned. Out of curiosity, I obtained a copy of the Freddy Cole disc. First I dropped it in my LG GGW-H20L drive. As expected, it only recognised the CD layer. Then I dug out a Samsung branded Firewire attached DVD drive from 2005. When plugged into a PC, it identifies itself as TSSTcorp CD/DVDW TS-L632B. That's Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology. Lo and behold, it reads the Freddy Cole disc. Note that this drive does not support HD-DVD, even predating the format. Another random SACD that also has a UDF filesystem cannot be read by this drive.