A Pleasant Little Cable Story That May Please Neither Objectivists Nor Subjectivists

[Jud]

Alert: None of what follows involves blind testing.

 

A week or so ago I received new cables from Ghent Audio - one USB cable for $35, two RCA-to-XLR cables to connect my pre-amp and amp for $15 each (all one meter lengths).  All were star quad, and the USB cable in addition has a "JSSG360" configuration.

 

Then this week I received two 3 foot long power cords from Amazon.

 

The idea for the USB cable was to change from a fairly heavy, stiff JSSG360 cable another member kindly made me that required an adapter (my DAC has an unusual USB A male input, necessitating a USB A female cable termination or adapter) with something lighter and less stiff that didn't need an adapter.  The reason was to put less torque on the DAC's USB input, which I was concerned might lead to potential problems down the road.  So I changed out the cable, and subjectively I liked it slightly better than the homemade one.  I'd liked the homemade one better than the Mapleshade Clearlink Plus, a USB cable I'd preferred to anything else I'd heard for several years (including the two AQ cables at the top of their line).  Very nice for $35.

 

The idea with the two RCA-to-XLR cables was twofold: (1) See whether the star quad configuration might lead to less noise pickup than my very lightly shielded Omega Mikro interconnects; and (2) though I know just having an RCA-to-XLR cable won't provide any of the noise reduction advantages of a truly balanced setup, see whether there might be any audible difference between the RCA and XLR input circuitry in my amp (unlikely, I felt).  The result was that I liked the sound with the new cables a fair amount better, at about 1/20th the price of the Omega Mikros if I remember what I paid for them correctly.  Of course this could simply be expectation bias, random chance, whatever, but I continue to think the system sounds a bit better now.

 

And finally, the new power cords, absolutely plain heavy duty power cords that came in a package of 3 for $6.  The idea was to use two of these in place of MIT Z-cords (which are sturdily built and have ferrites), then insert the Z-cords in place of two Mapleshade power cords, one to the pre-amp power supply, the other to the amp.  The Mapleshade cords have next to no shielding, so again the thought was better shielding and less noise pickup.  Well, all did not turn out as I thought.  The sound seemed a bit lifeless, "hi-fi" rather than "live," in subjective listening.  So I switched the Z-cord plugged into the amp back out for one of the Mapleshade power cords, and all was bliss.  The bite of violin bows on strings, the snap of percussion, the impression of fingers hitting keys on a piano rather than just notes being played, were back.  (I don't have that much recent experience with live unamplified percussion, but for the past year I've had onstage seats for the local chamber music series, so I feel I'm somewhat familiar with piano and violin sounds.)  I have no idea at all why the much more lightly constructed and unshielded Mapleshade should sound better to me subjectively, or indeed why power cords would make any difference at all other than potential noise pickup.  Other than random chance or subconsciously wanting the Mapleshade to sound better though I consciously expected the Z-cord to be better, I have no explanation for my subjective impression.

 

But anyway, I'm enjoying listening to music very much these days.  And (obligatory non-audiophile spouse story) my wife has asked me who the artists were on a couple of albums she never liked before.

[fas42]

The ferrite in the Z-chord would be my first guess - the filtering action imparted by it, plus how it's incorporated in the cable would be doing enough to disturb the behaviour of the power supply ... an interesting experiment would be to somehow remove that ferrite from the cable, with nothing else changed in the construction.

 

Normal audio rigs are a precarious balance of all sorts of noise adding, interference elements - change one thing, and the balance is disturbed - perhaps to produce a sound that makes no sense, in terms of what was done.

[marce]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

The ferrite in the Z-chord would be my first guess - the filtering action imparted by it, plus how it's incorporated in the cable would be doing enough to disturb the behaviour of the power supply ... an interesting experiment would be to somehow remove that ferrite from the cable, with nothing else changed in the construction.

 

Normal audio rigs are a precarious balance of all sorts of noise adding, interference elements - change one thing, and the balance is disturbed - perhaps to produce a sound that makes no sense, in terms of what was done.

In the high MHz!

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, marce said:

In the high MHz!

 

Ask Jud the bandwidth of his amp.

Also ask him the filtering in his DAC (net-output).

[Speedskater]

A ferrite just reduces the tendency of a cord to receive or transmit high frequency interference.   Maybe you enjoy a little  bit of added background noise from interference.

[marce]

4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Ask Jud the bandwidth of his amp.

Also ask him the filtering in his DAC (net-output).

What are you going on about, the reference was to the frequencies that ferrites work at....

[Jud]

43 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

A ferrite just reduces the tendency of a cord to receive or transmit high frequency interference.   Maybe you enjoy a little  bit of added background noise from interference.

 

I need to have a very complex "enjoyment profile" then, because I subjectively felt the better shielded signal cables between pre-amp and amplifier improved the sound.

[Jud]

38 minutes ago, marce said:

What are you going on about, the reference was to the frequencies that ferrites work at....

 

Peter referred to the fact that my amp is designed to have bandwidth to the (low) mHz, though I have no idea whether that's the least bit relevant to anything.

 

I found it interesting that (1) this was so far the only step intended to reduce noise that I haven't subjectively liked, of several I've done, and (2) that I subjectively noted a difference at all, when not particularly expecting one, and if anything, favorable.

[marce]

OK...

Further my reply was more in astonishment to the usual Frank's fragile stereo reply, I would hope they are not all that fragile. Again though ferrite tend to work in the high MHz, how far does your amp go into the MHz region?

[Jud]

1 hour ago, marce said:

OK...

Further my reply was more in astonishment to the usual Frank's fragile stereo reply, I would hope they are not all that fragile. Again though ferrite tend to work in the high MHz, how far does your amp go into the MHz region?

 

Specs don't give an exact upper frequency limit number, but do say 3dB down at 1.8mHz. So fairly low in the mHz range I would guess, without knowing a number.

[mansr]

This is the effect of a random clip-on ferrite I found on my desk:

 

Without the ferrite, the spectrum is perfectly flat.

[Jud]

27 minutes ago, mansr said:

This is the effect of a random clip-on ferrite I found on my desk:

 

Without the ferrite, the spectrum is perfectly flat.

 

If I'm reading the scale correctly, noise or a sweep signal is pretty flat to 1mHz or so, and diminishes very slightly by 5mHz. So nothing in the audible region (excluding any audible effects(?) from diminution of very high frequency noise).

[mansr]

23 minutes ago, Jud said:

If I'm reading the scale correctly, noise or a sweep signal is pretty flat to 1mHz or so, and diminishes very slightly by 5mHz. So nothing in the audible region (excluding any audible effects(?) from diminution of very high frequency noise).

Right, it's flat to about 1 MHz, then down 3 dB at 4 MHz.

[stuck limo]

On a related note, I recently changed the stock power cord for my Marantz amp to an Ice Age 12 gauge cord for 89 bucks. I think it sounds nice; more laid back and relaxed, with slightly more body. My buddy couldn't tell a difference and is not a cable believer. (the Ice Age was recommended to me by a guy who makes all of his own power cables)

 

I also purchased a 35 dollar 10 gauge "audiophile" cord from Amazon (Zeos has the same thing, I found out later) and I thought it made a clear difference on my powered monitors, clearing up the sound and allowing more details from within the soundstage to come through.

 

No blind testing was done.

[Jud]

So I gather from the reactions that it's very unlikely my subjective reaction to the Z-cord resulted from any reduction in upper audio frequencies caused by the ferrites.  I'm also getting the impression it's unlikely the ferrites would have reduced audible noise, though anyone is welcome to tell me how they may have.  This doesn't rule out a reduction in noise due to better cable shielding or sturdier construction.  Though I've subjectively liked measures that might reduce noise previously, it doesn't rule out this time being an exception.

 

It also doesn't rule out no change and my randomly preferring one identically performing power cord to another.

 

Of course it's also very unlikely, but the way the power cords each work within my system might actually have created some difference I heard.  Perhaps the Z-cord might allow a noise current to run along some path for which the Mapleshade cord provides slightly greater resistance.  But this is sheer speculation.

[fas42]

Just because some change in the environment of the audio system alters the sound, doesn't mean that the significant variation is easily measurable. You might measure that some parameter has varied, but to actually relate that to the audible characteristics of the rig may be quite difficult.

 

I've played with ferrites, a bit - and seem to have found some benefits - but I have to be careful with how I apply them. Just sticking one casually on a cable is likely to be a negative, as regards SQ.

 

Yes, audio is fragile - in part because most power supplies are too fragile - this is why many of the highly regarded amplifiers have monster power supplies; 'overkill' in this area takes away a lot of the fragility. A ferrite alters the spectrum of waveforms found in the PS area - and this ripples through to the amplifying circuitry.

[fas42]

Blind testing is going to be almost useless in this type of assessment - because what you're listening to has emotional meaning - and one's hearing adjusts the sound you perceive to give one that emotional hit each time ... the more you listen to A, and then B, and back; the more they will sound identical.

 

The only way to do blind testing sensibly is to create test tones that are meaningless; that one can't connect to emotionally - I create short, repeating blippy nonsense snippets if I really want to compare; the differences are then quite distinct.

[Jud]

While folks have seemed to concentrate on the power cords (an exchange in a roughly equivalent price range for each of around $100-$150), what I'm quite pleased with and don't want to lose sight of are the subjective improvements experienced from two $15 RCA cables and a $35 USB cable. Whether what I hear is real or not, the cables can serve as inexpensive recommendations the next time someone asks.

[esldude]

20 minutes ago, Jud said:

While folks have seemed to concentrate on the power cords (an exchange in a roughly equivalent price range for each of around $100-$150), what I'm quite pleased with and don't want to lose sight of are the subjective improvements experienced from two $15 RCA cables and a $35 USB cable. Whether what I hear is real or not, the cables can serve as inexpensive recommendations the next time someone asks.

Wouldn't the RCA cables be a good opportunity to try a one on the left channel and another on the right channel comparison?  

[lucretius]

On 1/23/2019 at 4:39 PM, Jud said:

one USB cable for $35, two RCA-to-XLR cables to connect my pre-amp and amp for $15 each

 

Shouldn't this have been the starting point?  ☺️

[Jud]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

Shouldn't this have been the starting point?  ☺️

 

PA Dutch saying: "Too soon old, too late smart." 😆

[Jud]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Wouldn't the RCA cables be a good opportunity to try a one on the left channel and another on the right channel comparison?  

 

I thought about that for half a second, but the DMA-150 has a selector switch between RCA and XLR input. You can't do both, or RCA for one channel and XLR for the other.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

I thought about that for half a second, but the DMA-150 has a selector switch between RCA and XLR input. You can't do both, or RCA for one channel and XLR for the other.

Oh didn't realize you were changing from RCA-RCA to RCA-XLR. 

 

You could get one of these adapters.  I don't trust Hosa cables, but I've used these with no issue.

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-GXM-133-RCA-XLR3M-Adaptor/dp/B000068O4D

 

[PeterSt]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

PA Dutch saying: "Too soon old, too late smart." 😆

 

Should be German. 

(anyway I never heard of it, but then of course I am not smart enough, yet)

[zackthedog]

Ghent cables sound very nice in my system.  An excellent bargain, IMO.