Popular Post Josh Mound Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 View full article SuperRoo and Don Blas De Lezo 2 🔊 The Best Version Of... 🎧 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 I sound like a broken record, but this is amazing Josh. Don Blas De Lezo, Solstice380, lucretius and 2 others 4 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Don Blas De Lezo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Wow Josh ! Fantastic work as usual ! Josh Mound 1 Link to comment
firedog Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I have the MFSL and the SACD. Can never decide which one I like best - and this article explains why. Thanks, Josh. Question: is the ‘84 version at Tidal the Nichols remaster? Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Danny Kaey Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 fascinating insights as always... only thing I'd add is that including analog / record versions of these trials would possibly tilt outcomes somehow... for example, I have the original ABC Aja, the MoFi (which was highly regarded), the Robert Pincus consulted and mastered (ex-Cisco, pre-IMPEX) reissue from mid 2000s. Of these, the Pincus mastered is the best followed by the MoFi, which sometimes splits the original pressing. The issue with Steely Dan titles is that the original tapes are mostly missing and there have been many errors made decoding the existing tapes with the proper Dolby decoders, some of which have been mislabeled, lost, etc. Link to comment
Johnseye Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Great writeup. Why didn't you consider the Cisco pressing? My understanding is that it's the definitive vinyl version. Aja (LP, Album, Ltd, Num, RE, RM, 30t) Cisco Music CLP-1006 US 2007 Would be interested in hearing your opinion on Nightfly. Another highly respected production that Mofi gave a special treatment for the second time. Audio System Link to comment
Jud Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Fun to read about (and to poke around in eBay seeing who wants a lot of money and who may have undiscovered treasures), but since I picked up the entire "Citizen" set for $3 in a used CD/record store, I guess I'm sticking with that. The Computer Audiophile 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
diecaster Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 This is a quite useful post over on the Hoffman forums: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/steely-dan-cds-different-masterings-the-summary-thread.561226/#post-14611213 I have mastering #3 which is the same as mastering #7 when comparing waveforms. See this thread: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/steely-dan-cds-different-masterings-aja.158372/ I like my CD better than any other I have heard, including the MFSL. Link to comment
thedregs Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The Cisco is overhyped, the Santa Maria pressing the "One". Curious what was the lineage of the CSM and Japanese VIM? Pretty sure there is an updated CSM "out there" Link to comment
Josh Mound Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 hours ago, firedog said: I have the MFSL and the SACD. Can never decide which one I like best - and this article explains why. Thanks, Josh. Question: is the ‘84 version at Tidal the Nichols remaster? Let me take a look at what’s on streaming and add a comment here about it. I believe one of them is the ‘99 Nichols, but I don’t know about any others. From now on, I’ll try to add info about streaming in the articles or as a footnote when possible. 1 hour ago, diecaster said: This is a quite useful post over on the Hoffman forums: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/steely-dan-cds-different-masterings-the-summary-thread.561226/#post-14611213 I have mastering #3 which is the same as mastering #7 when comparing waveforms. See this thread: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/steely-dan-cds-different-masterings-aja.158372/ I like my CD better than any other I have heard, including the MFSL. You have one of the Hoffman “clones.” Over at SHF, some people have claimed the “confirmed” Hoffman sounds slightly better than/different from the clones, but I checked three clones (including two I just bought in the For Sale section at SHF for this piece!) against a confirmed Hoffman and the EQ is identical. The only difference, as far as I can tell, is that some of the clones fix a track mark issue, where the first second of the next track is actually at the end of the previous track if you rip the CD. Some of the clones also might have silenced the gaps between songs more than others. But the actual musical content, as far as I can tell, is identical. 2 hours ago, Johnseye said: Great writeup. Why didn't you consider the Cisco pressing? My understanding is that it's the definitive vinyl version. Aja (LP, Album, Ltd, Num, RE, RM, 30t) Cisco Music CLP-1006 US 2007 Would be interested in hearing your opinion on Nightfly. Another highly respected production that Mofi gave a special treatment for the second time. I didn’t consider the Cisco only becuse I was just using the vinyl rips as a baseline of artist intent to compare the digital editions against. So I only wanted original Grundman masterings. Also, while I understand some people might like vinyl rips as their digital version of an album, I’m with Nichols: I prefer digital to vinyl. Plus, the vinyl rips are all unofficial releases, which isn’t something I want to get into (beyond the odd need for a vinyl comparison, like this case), for ethical and practical reasons. 1 hour ago, thedregs said: The Cisco is overhyped, the Santa Maria pressing the "One". Curious what was the lineage of the CSM and Japanese VIM? Pretty sure there is an updated CSM "out there" The lineage info for the CSM rip says it’s the 1977 AB-1006 pressing. I believe there’s an AA-1006 pressing. The people over in that SHF thread uniformly laud the AB-1006, though. As far as I know, Grundman was the only mastering engineer for the original vinyl, so I’m not sure what would account for any sonic differences in the pressings (beyond the inherent variation in the pressing of vinyl, “hot stampers,” etc.). I just tried to compare all the original vinyl rips that claim to have the Grundman mastering that I could find to figure out what was the normal representation of the Grudman vinyl mastering. The fact that both the CSM and Japanese pressings (both of which are praised by audiophiles) were high-quality rips with nearly-identical graphs in Har-Bal song-for-song made me feel confident that I knew what the Grundman mastering looked like. 🔊 The Best Version Of... 🎧 Link to comment
loop7 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Yeah, this is one of the most interesting pieces I've read on CA/AS and I'm not a Steely Dan fan. Josh Mound 1 Link to comment
Mayfair Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Great article and great fun to read. I have the 1999 Nichols CD mastering and what I believe may be the same 1984 CD mastering as diecaster's (the matrix info on mine reads MCAD 37214 DIDY 000055, which puts it in "mastering #3" on the Hoffman forum thread). Whether or not that's a "Hoffman clone", it is a pleasure to listen to. As is the 1999 remaster. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/steely-dan-cds-different-masterings-the-summary-thread.561226/#post-14611213 I prefer the 1984 CD mastering, but probably because I know it's the 1984 mastering when I put it on. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I have a 1984 release marked 37214 also, but dunno if it is Mastering #3 or #4. Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: I have a 1984 release marked 37214 also, but dunno if it is Mastering #3 or #4. It should be shown in the matrix next to where it says 000000055. I have a #3. I also have the MFSL and the recent Japanese flat transfer Platinum CD. I think it’s a toss up, and probably system dependent, whether the “SH master” or the Japanese CD is better, but both beat the MFSL. Josh Mound 1 https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Interesting about the MFSL (!) I'm not sure what you mean by matrix. There is a faint code - only readable from the back side - stamped into the CD just inside the silver data annulus - it starts out with 1AMCAD..." Then there is a stamp inside of that on the clear part which reads CMU P 51. Neither has the zeros or the 55. The case the CD is in (and which hopefully matches the CD) does say DIDY 55 on the back and on the 'spine' so maybe I have Mastering #3 (or a case for Mastering #3)... Link to comment
diecaster Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You guys can run your CDs through EAC or XLD to see what the track levels are and match from there. Link to comment
jcbenten Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Great essay! Looking forward to the next installment! Josh Mound 1 QNAP TS453Pro w/QLMS->Netgear Switch->Netgear RAX43 Router->Ethernet (50 ft)->Netgear switch->SBTouch ->SABAJ A10d->Linn Majik-IL (preamp)->Linn 2250->Linn Keilidh; Control Points: iPeng (iPad Air & iPhone); Also: Rega P3-24 w/ DV 10x5; OPPO 103; PC Playback: Foobar2000 & JRiver; Portable: iPhone 12 ProMax & Radio Paradise or NAS streaming; Sony NWZ ZX2 w/ PHA-3; SMSL IQ, Fiio Q5, iFi Nano iDSD BL; Garage: Edifier S1000DB Active Speakers Link to comment
Popular Post Josh Mound Posted January 17, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2019 With his permission, I wanted to post Meadows’s entire story of the mastering of the Citizen Steely Dan box: Steely Dan Citizen Steely Dan History Here’s the story of how the mastering of Citizen Steely Dan came to be. The story actually starts at the original transfer of the analog masters to CD. At that time, the CD masters were initially prepped/mastered by Bob Ludwig at Masterdisk in NYC. Many days were spent matching master tapes to different brand analog ¼” machines to get the best transfer possible One album (don’t know which), was missing the alignment tones, and took quite some time to get the playback EQ and level properly matched to the noise reduction used on the master tape. It was also realized at that point, that the analog tapes were in VERY poor condition due to continuous use for cutting master lacquers to keep pressing records. There were also EQ tape copies that were used for cassette duplication (and 8track going WAY back). At the end of the mastering, it was also decided to do a 1 pass FLAT transfer of the analog masters (after each album was mastered for CD), would be made to the 3M 4Track digital recorders. This was in the VERY early days of Digital recording. The masters that were created for CD were done with the Sony PCM 1600 system. 1 master tape of each album was created, and MCA delivered those to the CD plant in Japan. At that time, there were no plants active in the USA, and CD’s were being manufactured in 2 countries outside the USA. Move forward several years, there were now several domestic CD plants in operation, and MCA decided to move manufacturing from overseas to domestic US plants. What happened, was that a request for a new set of CD masters was sent to the MCA studios. Not realizing that there were NO copies of the Ludwig created masters in their files, the studios pulled the 15IPS Dolby EQ tape copies, and transferred THOSE tapes to the Sony digital tapes, and sent those to the US plant(s) for replication. Nobody ever compared the US made CD’s to the original CD’s, since it was assumed they were all the same. Fast forward to mid 1990’s. Roger Nichools is now living in Nashville, and I (Glenn Meadows) have been working with him mastering projects for him. MCA decided to add 4 cuts to the then 8 cut Steely Dan Gold CD. Roger asked for the master tapes be sent to Nashville so that he and I could master the 4 additional cuts and create new CD masters. When the tapes arrived, they were a stack of ¼” analog Dolby copies (see above), as well as the 1 1630 master that was the 8 cut Solid Gold album. Roger realized that they had sent the wrong original album masters had been sent. He made some phone calls, and told the MCA vault that they needed to find Sony Digital masters made at Masterdisk, and that they were the correct CD master source tapes. What he subsequently found out, was that the wrong tapes had been used YEARS earlier when production switched to the US. Panic ensued, and Steely Dan management threatened to sue, and MCA stopped all CD manufacture. Roger was able to locate the FLAT 3m 4 track masters that were recorded when the fist mastering was done for CD release. Those were sent to me in Nashville, were there is/was still a working set of 3M digital recorders. It was at that point that the re-mastering that later became the box set occurred. All 7 of the CD’s were remastered at that time to update ALL CD releases. Transfers were made from the 3M system for mastering. The oldest albums were of course in the worst shape at the time of the analog transfers. Processing included all digital EQ/Compression signal processing. Also, several functions of CEDAR was used. On the older albums, a light processing of De-Noise was applied. This was used in conjunction with the EQ processing so that when the noise was removed, there was also no loss of hi-end (a typical false accusation about CEDAR, the reality is an overly aggressive application of the process). The final CEDAR process was their “Phase Correction”, which in reality is a digital azimuth correction. It works similar to what mastering engineers have used for years to fine tune azimuth on tape playback (reverse polarity then mono and null the HF content in the middle). This was a subtle improvement, but was obvious when taken in and out of the signal path. That was how all 7 albums were re-mastered, and re-released. The ONLY notation was a sticker that said “Recently Re-Mastered by Artist” During the time of re-master, Roger, Walter and Donald were in Hawaii working on the final mixes/recoding of Kamakeriad, and approval was done by sending CDR’s to them via Fed Ex for approval. All mastering was done by myself, with the instructions to “pretend you’ve never heard the albums before, and do what you feel appropriate”, and we’ll listen and advise as you go along. Albums were approved as initially presented to them, no changes. The box set was simply a re-edit adjusting sequence to match that provided by MCA to fit on 4 CD’s. Since we were about a year and ahalf later, there were some improvements in the CEDAR system, and there were several tracks that I was unable to completely remove the tape his without having resulting “space monkey” artifacts. With the later version of CEDAR, I was able to successfully remove the last vestiges of the tape hiss. That’s what the final box set was created from. And that’s the whole story. Siltech817 and Solstice380 1 1 🔊 The Best Version Of... 🎧 Link to comment
Daccord Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Thanks for a great article. I really enjoyed it. I bought it as a download from 7digital - no idea what version they sold me, but it's a bit bright and sounds very much "early digital". Link to comment
Josh Mound Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: Interesting about the MFSL (!) I'm not sure what you mean by matrix. There is a faint code - only readable from the back side - stamped into the CD just inside the silver data annulus - it starts out with 1AMCAD..." Then there is a stamp inside of that on the clear part which reads CMU P 51. Neither has the zeros or the 55. The case the CD is in (and which hopefully matches the CD) does say DIDY 55 on the back and on the 'spine' so maybe I have Mastering #3 (or a case for Mastering #3)... 1 hour ago, diecaster said: You guys can run your CDs through EAC or XLD to see what the track levels are and match from there. Yes, using EAC or XLD (or the Computer ReplayGain feature in Audirvana) to get the peak levels is the easiest way to tell. The big debate was whether the “clones” of the Hoffman were actually any different from the Hoffman. As I noted in a footnote, they don’t look any different in Har-Bal. I think the only difference is different track markers and the silence between songs. 🔊 The Best Version Of... 🎧 Link to comment
miguelito Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Finding it hard to identify the different versions on Amazon. What do people recommend? NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
Mayfair Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 If I can't find the release through a search on Amazon, I check eBay, where I've had more success finding specific releases that are hard to find on Amazon (e.g. the 1988 original CD version of Van Morrison's Veedon Fleece). I find Amazon seems to favor the most recent mastering in the search results; I've had to stick in specific years with the album name to find older masterings, if available. I haven't tried discogs. Link to comment
miguelito Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Mayfair said: If I can't find the release through a search on Amazon, I check eBay, where I've had more success finding specific releases that are hard to find on Amazon (e.g. the 1988 original CD version of Van Morrison's Veedon Fleece). I find Amazon seems to favor the most recent mastering in the search results; I've had to stick in specific years with the album name to find older masterings, if available. I haven't tried discogs. Right. More often than not, I can't actually tell what the release is on Amazon. And the customer comments below often apply to any one of the versions (vinyl/cd/import cd/etc) so it is even more cryptic. If only they quoted the item's manufacturer version it would make it easier to tell. Additionally you sometimes don't get the exact release you purchased. BTW... Looked into the SMH-SACD... Bought from AcousticSounds it is $60, from CDJapan it's $34 + about the same amount in shipping... NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
audiobomber Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 It was fun to listen to each track after it was dissected in the article. I have owned a red vinyl version of Aja since it was a hot new release. Despite my concern that coloured vinyl may turn out to be inferior, it's still in great shape after more than a thousand plays. It is now ripped at 24/88. I rarely make a change in my system without playing Crime of the Century, followed by Aja. I'm surprised there was no mention about sexual references in Dan lyrics. Maybe the band's name takes my mind there, but some lines seem pretty blatantly sexy. I Got The News and Josie are prime examples. Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
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