Popular Post Kal Rubinson Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, fas42 said: You appear to have a need for a precise recipe. However, the recipe will be different for every individual, depending upon their particular circumstances. And unless one knows those circumstances, some sort of generalised recipe is not going to be very useful. Time wasting, in fact. OK. So, how about a specific, even if particular, example? Allan F and Teresa 2 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
gmgraves Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 11 hours ago, Blackmorec said: Expectation sure...expectation bias, not necessarily. One doesn’t automatically lead to the other. You can expect an outcome, perform a test and find your expectation isn’t fulfilled. Surely that happens often in hi-if. I’ve tried various footers under my amps but in each case preferred the amp sitting directly on the rack. If I hadn’t expected the footers to make an improvement I wouldn’t have tried them. They didn’t so I didn’t buy them, because my initial expectation was unfulfilled. I suspect (in fact I KNOW), that if one has just spent heavy pocket lettuce on a pair of Nordost (or equivalent) interconnects, one is going to hear a difference between those new cables and the old ones whether that difference exists or not. That's Expectational Bias. Usually the new, expensive component will sound better than the old one (that's our egos getting involved, and again, whether it's really better or not), because that's human nature. We need a mechanism to remove that type of self delusion from the process, and so far DBTs of one style or another are the only sure-fire way of doing that as far as I know. Teresa and March Audio 1 1 George Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 56 minutes ago, gmgraves said: I suspect (in fact I KNOW), that if one has just spent heavy pocket lettuce on a pair of Nordost (or equivalent) interconnects, one is going to hear a difference between those new cables and the old ones whether that difference exists or not. That's Expectational Bias. Usually the new, expensive component will sound better than the old one (that's our egos getting involved, and again, whether it's really better or not), because that's human nature. We need a mechanism to remove that type of self delusion from the process, and so far DBTs of one style or another are the only sure-fire way of doing that as far as I know. And which expectation bias is operating when I like something cheaper and less sleek-looking better? Expectation bias is certainly ubiquitous, but when you can use it to explain absolutely everything, it doesn't get very deep. christopher3393, Richard Dale, Allan F and 1 other 2 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, fas42 said: You appear to have a need for a precise recipe. However, the recipe will be different for every individual, depending upon their particular circumstances. And unless one knows those circumstances, some sort of generalised recipe is not going to be very useful. There you go again. Not even a scintilla of valuable information. Forget it! Quote Time wasting, in fact. You mean just like your posts. Why don't you give the bandwidth a break. Hugo9000 and Teresa 1 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
John Dyson Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Jud said: Although for this particular topic, the background, or at least curiosity and desire for education, should be in the human auditory system and associated areas. Actually'flaws in blind listening tests' include not using statistics thereby getting noisy results. For example, is also helpful to know that the environment can also cause things like transducers to vary in characteristics. The various aspects of human hearing ARE important, but there are lots of really interesting areas in that field which are not important. There are other fields of study which will also help to get the best possible results. I wouldn't spend all of my time resource on human 'hearing', but also study the areas of the appropriate fields which will help to get/process good end results. BTW -- even the general idea of 'collecting data about human hearing' isn't sufficent to test the listening characteristics of audio equipment (but cannot hurt to already know as much as possible.) When reading papers (studying for a work purpose), sometimes a certain focus is needed. Much of the time, we EEs, DSP, and software people (I am all three) cannot be basic experts in all of the areas where we must work, so for the sake of efficiency, studying appropriate areas with a focus on the needed information (basically 'getting to the point') is critical. In this instance, trying to determine and fix the flaws in listening tests, understanding the techniques needed to remove as much bias as possible, while STRUCTURING the test is just as important as knowing the loudness curves or (for example) problems with hearing in old age (and that problem IS causing me troubles -- with rather frustrating changes in my hearing from day to day!!!) Also -- appropr iate for the N hemisphere right now -- the big change in humidity in homes due to outside air temperature can signifcantly change the characterstics of certain kinds of transducers. Also, home brew equipment is likely to be 'eccentric' relative to lots of factors (power supply variations/etc), so making sure to consider those factors might also be important. There are very many (external) things that can mistakenly help to cause more error than really need be. Lots of strange external factors can creep in -- then the results can have more error than need be. I don't think that focusing primarily on the characteristics of human hearing is best allocation of resources, but some background in hearing, stats, engineering, and attempt to avoid personal bias (yes -- I know -- really cannot eliminate personal bias, but we can try) will make it possible to get usable AND CONVINCING results. BTW -- I don't basically disagree with you that it is INFINITELY more useful to do a bit of research before giving personal opinons. If I hadn't done the 'data collection and presentation' thing many times, I probably wouldn't have written much about this. John Link to comment
fas42 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said: OK. So, how about a specific, even if particular, example? Well, on this forum I've laid out the steps on the first rig that came together, 30 years ago. And pointed out the thread, on my blog, that shows the steps I'm going through with the current NAD combo. Is this what you're thinking of? If I was starting from scratch, right now, with money to "get the job done fast", one option I would seriously consider are the Dutch & Dutch active monitors that are the current flavour of the month - they appear to get most things right in raw form; it's highly likely not much extra would be needed to extract the necessary integrity. Link to comment
Popular Post Blackmorec Posted January 11, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 6 hours ago, gmgraves said: I suspect (in fact I KNOW), that if one has just spent heavy pocket lettuce on a pair of Nordost (or equivalent) interconnects, one is going to hear a difference between those new cables and the old ones whether that difference exists or not. That's Expectational Bias. Usually the new, expensive component will sound better than the old one (that's our egos getting involved, and again, whether it's really better or not), because that's human nature. We need a mechanism to remove that type of self delusion from the process, and so far DBTs of one style or another are the only sure-fire way of doing that as far as I know. Well that’s a really interesting example that I disagree with about 95%, leaving a little room for a possible grain of truth😊 Firstly, most audiophiles wouldn’t be buying the cables in the first place without a thorough evaluation to ensure they’re a significant step in the right direction. Then, I’ve encountered many situations where adding an extremely well reviewed item simply hasn’t brought the hoped for results. This is often to do with the other components you’re ‘mixing’ it with. Example, I use a Finite Element Pagode Master Reference stand. It was designed by a university professor who presumably used university facilities to measure all resonances and design anti-resonance devices which are built into each shelf. Despite trying several expensive and well reviewed footers and platforms I have yet to find anything that performs better than the plain FEPR shelf. Many of the devices brought useful additions to the sound but all lost a degree of naturalness in the process. In all cases, my expectations were set by the glowing reviews but in all cases my ears told me that in my system those enhancements weren’t getting me closer to my goal of greater musical enjoyment. Personally I have one overriding goal...I get immense pleasure from listening to music.....anything that disturbs that pleasure is rejected whereas anything that enhanced that pleasure is added (I only listen to things I’m prepared to buy so nothing outside my budget). My ego has nothing to do with this. Satisfying and stimulating my musical pleasure centre is my only motivator. If there’s any emotion involved its what I’d call PPP......Post Purchase Paranoia.....usually triggered by an item going through burn-in. Taz777 and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 11 hours ago, John Dyson said: Not everyone who develops an opinon has the math/engineering/signal processing background for the opinion to have meaning in the real world. Golly Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
STC Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Blackmorec said: Then, I’ve encountered many situations where adding an extremely well reviewed item simply hasn’t brought the hoped for results. This is often to do with the other components you’re ‘mixing’ it with. Sorry my post is OT but just pointing out the common practice among audiophiles. I don’t inderstand why you have to mix in the first place. There are many manufacturer who make all the equipment and yet audiophiles prefer to mix them with other brands. Somehow, the manufacturer who designed the preamp and amplifier missed the magical combination. Strange. Teresa 1 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post Blackmorec Posted January 11, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, STC said: Sorry my post is OT but just pointing out the common practice among audiophiles. I don’t inderstand why you have to mix in the first place. There are many manufacturer who make all the equipment and yet audiophiles prefer to mix them with other brands. Somehow, the manufacturer who designed the preamp and amplifier missed the magical combination. Strange. Manufacturers making all components is very common at the consumer level...Denon, Sony, Panasonic, Technics etc. But rarely the case at the specialist audiophile level....Magico, Rockport, YG Acoustics, Tannoy, Constellation, Boulder, BAT, Devialet, Innuos, Nordost, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, Entreq etc etc. fas42 and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Jud Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 7 hours ago, John Dyson said: Actually'flaws in blind listening tests' include not using statistics thereby getting noisy results. For example, is also helpful to know that the environment can also cause things like transducers to vary in characteristics. The various aspects of human hearing ARE important, but there are lots of really interesting areas in that field which are not important. There are other fields of study which will also help to get the best possible results. I wouldn't spend all of my time resource on human 'hearing', but also study the areas of the appropriate fields which will help to get/process good end results. BTW -- even the general idea of 'collecting data about human hearing' isn't sufficent to test the listening characteristics of audio equipment (but cannot hurt to already know as much as possible.) When reading papers (studying for a work purpose), sometimes a certain focus is needed. Much of the time, we EEs, DSP, and software people (I am all three) cannot be basic experts in all of the areas where we must work, so for the sake of efficiency, studying appropriate areas with a focus on the needed information (basically 'getting to the point') is critical. In this instance, trying to determine and fix the flaws in listening tests, understanding the techniques needed to remove as much bias as possible, while STRUCTURING the test is just as important as knowing the loudness curves or (for example) problems with hearing in old age (and that problem IS causing me troubles -- with rather frustrating changes in my hearing from day to day!!!) Also -- appropr iate for the N hemisphere right now -- the big change in humidity in homes due to outside air temperature can signifcantly change the characterstics of certain kinds of transducers. Also, home brew equipment is likely to be 'eccentric' relative to lots of factors (power supply variations/etc), so making sure to consider those factors might also be important. There are very many (external) things that can mistakenly help to cause more error than really need be. Lots of strange external factors can creep in -- then the results can have more error than need be. I don't think that focusing primarily on the characteristics of human hearing is best allocation of resources, but some background in hearing, stats, engineering, and attempt to avoid personal bias (yes -- I know -- really cannot eliminate personal bias, but we can try) will make it possible to get usable AND CONVINCING results. BTW -- I don't basically disagree with you that it is INFINITELY more useful to do a bit of research before giving personal opinons. If I hadn't done the 'data collection and presentation' thing many times, I probably wouldn't have written much about this. John Very nice, thank you for this. I was aware of a lot of it, but nice to see it collected. The one thing I'll add is that being aware of some quirks of ear/brain operation can help to understand which aspects of test setup may be surprisingly important or surprisingly unimportant. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
STC Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: Manufacturers making all components is very common at the consumer level...Denon, Sony, Panasonic, Technics etc. But rarely the case at the specialist audiophile level....Magico, Rockport, YG Acoustics, Tannoy, Constellation, Boulder, BAT, Devialet, Innuos, Nordost, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, Entreq etc etc. ...but i have also seen some mixing up despite having all separates. Recent visit to all Traingle Art Master Reference setup but speakers from different manufacturer. IMO, the Triangle Art speakers were the best of last years AV show that I attended. And you also have suggestion from experts that best combination should tube preamps and SS amps. Some mix to have their preferred flavour. Once, i replaced my Classe preamp with Supratek. Yes...that tube sound which was....,nice. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Blackmorec said: In all cases, my expectations were set by the glowing reviews but in all cases my ears told me that in my system those enhancements weren’t getting me closer to my goal of greater musical enjoyment. I agree with this 100%. I spent several weeks at the budget end of the HiFi market building my computer-sourced HiFi system through trial and error. Highly-rated components (e.g. a DAC) caused me no end of grief with noise, as did many cables. Some components didn't produce the sound that emotionally involved me. After trialling many different components, cables, speakers, I settled upon a set of components that worked well together in my 2.1 system. In fact, I even had to get my IEC power cable replaced by the manufacturer of my subwoofer to get it 'dark' enough for my ears, one which has a mysterious black box in the middle of the cable. Imagine that, replacing an IEC power cable!!! I enjoy the music from this system for around 5 hours a day when I'm working from home. Back in the 80s/90s it took me around 10 years to build up a decent HiFi system through 2-3 upgrades of components and cables every year, all through trial and error. That's why it's a hobby for me - it's the same as cycling, photography, etc. All are wallet-emptying but thoroughly enjoyable and absorbing. It's a top-down approach for me - start off with a sound in your mind that you are seeking and then hook together the tech that delivers that sound. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 7 hours ago, fas42 said: Well, on this forum I've laid out the steps on the first rig that came together, 30 years ago. And pointed out the thread, on my blog, that shows the steps I'm going through with the current NAD combo. Is this what you're thinking of? Possibly. Do you have a link to those? Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
John Dyson Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 13 hours ago, Allan F said: Another "pablum" generality completely devoid of any substantive content. Why don't you tell us how great it is to breathe air? Bye Bye. I agree with the idea that it is frustrating to actually communicate when someone is trying to express themselves without the engineering/math/scientific expertise. Sometimes a provincial language emerges that is used to communicate amongst the non technical individuals. I don't know the answer to the matter other than 1) a semi-permanent division between those who really understand and those who THINK that they understand OR 2) an attempt to communicate and inform/educate those who are coming up to speed. (Maybe a combo of the two choices -- there might be more choices, just giving examples.) I do have a somewhat 'soft spot' for those who are missing some technical background - being a very flexible and quick learning engineer, then I sometimes have a LOT to learn in specialty fields. Sometimes I am clumsy when communicating with the experts in a specialty. Even though I am a fairly competent DSP/EE/and software engineer/developer, there are areas where I have limited knowledge. Just happens is that I am currently learning a little bit about REAL professional mastering/recording, etc. I am NOT an expert in the field at all, but my software project is a tool that such individuals might need (probably the first fully functional software DolbyA decoder that REALLY sounds like a DolbyA.) Just because I wrote the software, developed the rather sophisticated algorithms to emulate rather eccentric hardware design, doesn't mean that I really know how to professionally use the device :-). Just trying to explain -- I do have toleration for those with a bit of pseudo-knowledge, as long as those people are willing to learn something new. In fields other than my own real expertise and experience, I might seem to be full of 'pseudo-knowhow' also!!! However -- I do not like to deal with people who have lots of pseudo-knowledge and NOT have an open mind to learn. Just my opinion.... John Jud 1 Link to comment
Blackmorec Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 I think what you get are people with a good knowledge about measurements and measuring who often have strong opinions based on what they know. And you get people who do not have the skill/education in electronic test and measurement, but who may have strong opinions based on what they hear, which may by the way may be accurate, sensitive and quite well refined without suffering from expectational bias, like a skilled wine taster, who is not a chemist but can still correctly differentiate wines and their ‘attributes’ . Link to comment
Sonicularity Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: I think what you get are people with a good knowledge about measurements and measuring who often have strong opinions based on what they know. And you get people who do not have the skill/education in electronic test and measurement, but who may have strong opinions based on what they hear, which may by the way may be accurate, sensitive and quite well refined without suffering from expectational bias, like a skilled wine taster, who is not a chemist but can still correctly differentiate wines and their ‘attributes’ . I'm sure skilled wine tasters would make similar arguments with regards to flaws inherent to blind testing. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 29 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: like a skilled wine taster, who is not a chemist but can still correctly differentiate wines and their ‘attributes’ . Or like a flat-earther, who can tell that the earth is flat by just looking. All measurements of curvature are wrong, it's plainly obvious to anyone only willing to open their eyes. Teresa 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Allan F Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 5 hours ago, John Dyson said: I agree with the idea that it is frustrating to actually communicate when someone is trying to express themselves without the engineering/math/scientific expertise. Sometimes a provincial language emerges that is used to communicate amongst the non technical individuals. John, I appreciate your opinion. However, IMO the issue in this instance is neither a question of difficulty of expression nor a lack of expertise. Rather, It has to do with repeating the same nonsense about good and bad recordings, including the notion that tweaking playback equipment can convert bad recordings into good ones, absolutely convinced that he is right. For example: Quote "Bad [recordings]" are just recordings put down with no concern for the 'sensitivities' of the playback equipment. "Good recordings" are the Politically Correct ones, they have been painstakingly doctored so that they offend no-one, no matter how 'bad' the status of their playback rig is. And the ones that become very, very boring when one has a competent system - like gulping down large slabs of strained baby food." Thank God for Bad Recordings! They have given me immense pleasure for the years, because they take no prisoners; all the excitement of intensely felt music making is bound up in them - may there be no "Auntie" music in heaven!. I will avoid further frustration by simply ignoring his posts. Teresa 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 No matter what you do, or how many disciplines you are trained in, or cross-trained in, "there [will always be] areas [related to sound reproduction] where [you will] have limited knowledge." As examples: consider that "hearing" requires understanding the basics of acoustics, neuro-physiology, AND cognitive psychology. equipment design can require digital electronics, analog electronics, AND vibration analysis. Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, pkane2001 said: Or like a flat-earther, who can tell that the earth is flat by just looking. All measurements of curvature are wrong, it's plainly obvious to anyone only willing to open their eyes. Surely you mean 'only willing to close their eyes'? Audiophile Neuroscience 1 System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Richard Dale said: Surely you mean 'only willing to close their eyes'? flat-earther = trust your open eyes -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
kumakuma Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Allan F said: I will avoid further frustration by simply ignoring his posts. This is one of my resolutions for the new year. Allan F 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Sonicularity said: I'm sure skilled wine tasters would make similar arguments with regards to flaws inherent to blind testing. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis There are similar blind tests where carbon fiber violins beat out Stradivariuses. But if you look a little deeper, you find these listening tests aren't controlled for loudness, and the louder violins win, which is no surprise. That's what I'd like to do with listening tests for audio (at least the loudness-controlled ones) - get a little deeper and see *why* the results are as they are. Allan F and Teresa 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: flat-earther = trust your open eyes Maybe ! I couldn't help finding your comment 'you only need to open your eyes' at odds with defending blind tests. System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
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