The_K-Man Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, esldude said: So which microphone and recording venue gets us to 144 db? The answer is none of them. So then the question is how close do we get? Tough customer Mr. esldude! I just hope you're not a 'loudness head', lol. I think mansr is on the right track regarding mics and venues, as he posted a couple hours back. 100dB. Nothing a DAW with 24bit can't handle. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 How much DR do I need to "hear the scream of the butterfly" ?? Link to comment
Miska Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 4 hours ago, mansr said: The lowest sound level that can be captured is determined by ambient noise and self-noise of the microphone. The upper limit is likely set by the microphone as going too loud will cause severe distortion and can even damage it. You'll have to check the specs to get accurate numbers, but I doubt you'll find many offering more than 100 dB of usable dynamic range. A good 24-bit ADC will have no trouble recording this. For example Neumann KM183 has A-weighted self-noise of 13 dB and maximum SPL is 140 dB (0.5% THD). DPA 4006 has A-weighted self-noise of 15 dB and maximum SPL 146 dB. Many of these microphone models have a switchable pad from 10 to 20 dB, so you can roughly shift the dynamic range down by that amount in SPL. But anyway, one way to check is to go through bunch of hires material and see what they have. With my earlier checks and random pick I can say that it is at least more than 16-bit worth. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 12 hours ago, Arpiben said: Noise-shaping has no effect on the noise-floor of the analogue or acoustic signal. Question was about needed digital resolution, so noise-shaping applies in that scope. Noise shaping also affects analog domain if you measure unlimited bandwidth. 12 hours ago, Arpiben said: From what I read that floor is at least 30 dB greater than the digital noise floor of a 16 bit dithered ( 120 db within audio bandwidth). There's a difference on what is detectable level of discrete tone vs dynamic range. There's no problem detecting single sine at -120 dB in dithered 16-bit data. But if the signal is white noise at -120 dB level, it is undetectable from the noise floor. 12 hours ago, Arpiben said: Typical digital dynamic range of 120 dB (or much more) can be achieved within the audible frequency bandwidth. You can only achieve that with 16-bit if you can move enough of the noise out of audible frequency band, which means you have enough sampling rate to move Nyquist far enough above audible frequency band to make space where to "park" the noise moved away from audible band. For example 16-bit data has fixed total noise level, but it's frequency distribution can be anything you decide. However, if your sample rate is 40 kHz, all your usable bandwidth falls within audible range, so you have no place outside of audible band where to move that quantization noise. Arpiben and jabbr 1 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
STC Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 How about speakers? What is the dynamic range of the best loudspeakers? One designer told me it is around 60 dB some slightly better than that. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
fas42 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Some classical music clips, with successive versions at -20, -40, -60dB down convinced me that staggering dynamic ranges with recording, and mastering were completely unnecessary - if one is straining to actually hear anything, with volume on max - the -60dB item - then going silly with numbers is pointless ... jabbr 1 Link to comment
esldude Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Miska said: For example Neumann KM183 has A-weighted self-noise of 13 dB and maximum SPL is 140 dB (0.5% THD). DPA 4006 has A-weighted self-noise of 15 dB and maximum SPL 146 dB. Many of these microphone models have a switchable pad from 10 to 20 dB, so you can roughly shift the dynamic range down by that amount in SPL. But anyway, one way to check is to go through bunch of hires material and see what they have. With my earlier checks and random pick I can say that it is at least more than 16-bit worth. I couldn't see what in your earlier spectrogram was indicating the difference. Could you explain so I might understand? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Miska said: Question was about needed digital resolution, so noise-shaping applies in that scope. Noise shaping also affects analog domain if you measure unlimited bandwidth. There's a difference on what is detectable level of discrete tone vs dynamic range. There's no problem detecting single sine at -120 dB in dithered 16-bit data. But if the signal is white noise at -120 dB level, it is undetectable from the noise floor. You can only achieve that with 16-bit if you can move enough of the noise out of audible frequency band, which means you have enough sampling rate to move Nyquist far enough above audible frequency band to make space where to "park" the noise moved away from audible band. For example 16-bit data has fixed total noise level, but it's frequency distribution can be anything you decide. However, if your sample rate is 40 kHz, all your usable bandwidth falls within audible range, so you have no place outside of audible band where to move that quantization noise. My understanding is with dither for 44 and 48 khz rates, you shift noise away from where hearing is most sensitive to areas where our thresholds are higher. So the noise is all in the audible band, but still at levels we'll not hear it. While decreasing noise where we might thereby extending the range effectively for human ears. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Arpiben Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 10 hours ago, Miska said: For example Neumann KM183 has A-weighted self-noise of 13 dB and maximum SPL is 140 dB (0.5% THD). DPA 4006 has A-weighted self-noise of 15 dB and maximum SPL 146 dB. Many of these microphone models have a switchable pad from 10 to 20 dB, so you can roughly shift the dynamic range down by that amount in SPL. But anyway, one way to check is to go through bunch of hires material and see what they have. With my earlier checks and random pick I can say that it is at least more than 16-bit worth. And what about sensivity or S/N? For KM183 S/N = 70 dB (/94dBSPL IEC 60268-1).Noise Floor = 24 dBSPL. Then what about the noise contribution of amplifiers and other analogue equipment before ADC ? Just curious since I have only a rough idea. Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted January 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2019 Some years ago, while discussing SACD’s and DVD-A’s aledged superiority in another forum, a recording engineer posted his description of real world 24 bit recording.The DVD Audio has an S/N of 144 dB (6 x 24 = 144) but current recording and reproduction capabilities are far from that number. And let's not forget that the threshold of human hearing is somewhere around 120 dB (747 during take-off at 10 metres)... MIC Neumann’s most silent mic the TLM 103 has an S/N of 131 dB while the most common for “classical” and famous M150, when used in a Decca Tree configuration, lowerers this number to 119 dB Assuming you are using the TLM 103 you have already lost 13 dB MIC PREAMP Next comes the mic preamplifier, let’s say, the excellent Millennia HV 3D with an S/N of 133 dB which is above the mic’s capabilities A/DC A good 24 bit AD like the Apogee 16 X has an S/N of around 120 dB and this means removing 11 dB from the previous weak link, the mic, at 131 dB You are now recording at 20 bit (120 / 6 = 20) He goes on to say that after DSP, noise-floor and mastering are considered you are down to around 18 bits. esldude and Arpiben 1 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
semente Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Here's a recording with some quite obvious wide dynamic swings: "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
The_K-Man Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 1 minute ago, semente said: Here's a recording with some quite obvious wide dynamic swings: And yet a good CD rip of that will return a reading of DR12 in Foobar 2000 or TT DR meter, the same reading as a track off something by Duran Duran! That is because those applications measure only a portion of the songs' dynamic ranges, not the absolute full range of each. Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted January 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Arpiben said: And what about sensivity or S/N? For KM183 S/N = 70 dB (/94dBSPL IEC 60268-1).Noise Floor = 24 dBSPL. Then what about the noise contribution of amplifiers and other analogue equipment before ADC ? Just curious since I have only a rough idea. As I mentioned earlier, S/N figure is dominated by distortion. -70 dB = 0.03% which is pretty good distortion figure for an acoustic transducer! And A-weighted of -81 = 0.009%! So for KM183, maximum SPL is 140 dB and A-weighted noise is 13 dB yielding 140 - 13 = 127 dB(A) DNR. Or with CCIR peak noise 140 - 24 = 116 dB(CCIR) peak. With those DPA (originally Brüel & Kjær microphone section later split out to a separate company) 130 V phantom microphones the figures are about 8 dB better. Not listed anymore on the DPA site, but still in stock in some shops. AFAIK, for example 2L uses these mic preamps: https://www.mil-media.com/HV-3C.html https://www.mil-media.com/HV-3D-8.html And that's it before the ADC. esldude, jabbr and Arpiben 2 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Miska Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 31 minutes ago, semente said: A/DC A good 24 bit AD like the Apogee 16 X has an S/N of around 120 dB and this means removing 11 dB from the previous weak link, the mic, at 131 dB You are now recording at 20 bit (120 / 6 = 20) Quite many use Merging Horus or Hapi these days with their ADC cards: https://www.merging.com/products/interfaces/specifications#a-d8-d-a-d8-d-p-option-card People with 130V mics certainly use something like Millennia Media mic pre-amps, and some others use for example completely custom built mic pre's for those. I'm personally using RME ADI-2 Pro: http://rme-audio.de/en/products/adi_2-pro.php#7 Which is so far among the best with unweighted 120 dB and A-weighted 124 dB SNR. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted January 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2019 10 hours ago, esldude said: My understanding is with dither for 44 and 48 khz rates, you shift noise away from where hearing is most sensitive to areas where our thresholds are higher. So the noise is all in the audible band, but still at levels we'll not hear it. While decreasing noise where we might thereby extending the range effectively for human ears. Yes, if you use noise shaping you can shovel the noise around, but it doesn't change total amount of noise within audio band, just it's frequency distribution within the audio band. Standard dither, like in my examples, is TPDF which has flat frequency distribution (so you get flat noise floor). While if you use higher sampling rates you can actually move noise out from the audio band. So for example if you use 352.8 kHz, you have actually some bandwidth outside of frequency range where you have signals from microphones and you can park some of the noise there. jabbr and esldude 2 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
The_K-Man Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 11 hours ago, esldude said: My understanding is with dither for 44 and 48 khz rates, you shift noise away from where hearing is most sensitive to areas where our thresholds are higher. So the noise is all in the audible band, but still at levels we'll not hear it. While decreasing noise where we might thereby extending the range effectively for human ears. "for human ears" Suggesting that we extend the range effectively for the authentic reproduction, via domestic or live venue sound system, of the detonation of a five megaton nuclear warhead at ten miles distance? Link to comment
semente Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, The_K-Man said: "for human ears" Suggesting that we extend the range effectively for the authentic reproduction, via domestic or live venue sound system, of the detonation of a five megaton nuclear warhead at ten miles distance? Have you tried this 16-bit dynamic range audibility test? https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_dynamiccheck.php esldude 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
jabbr Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 There are two entirely different questions which are being conflated here: 1) what is the maximum dynamic range that can be recorded vs 2) what is the maximum dynamic range than can be perceived Those are two significantly different discussions. Folks who are purely interested in perception need to understand the intricacies of recording eg noise shaping — @esldude can say if he intends this thread to discuss perception? Hugo9000 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
The_K-Man Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, jabbr said: There are two entirely different questions which are being conflated here: 1) what is the maximum dynamic range that can be recorded vs 2) what is the maximum dynamic range than can be perceived Those are two significantly different discussions. Folks who are purely interested in perception need to understand the intricacies of recording eg noise shaping — @esldude can say if he intends this thread to discuss perception? I loathe that word. 'conflate' It's used a lot over on head-fi and Gearslutz, and it's getting tedious. Link to comment
jabbr Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, The_K-Man said: I loathe that word. 'conflate' Do you understand? (I don’t post on those sites but perhaps you should consider that your thinking displays a certain pattern) Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
The_K-Man Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 2 hours ago, jabbr said: Do you understand? (I don’t post on those sites but perhaps you should consider that your thinking displays a certain pattern) Well I don't mince words exactly. I don't call a duck an 'aquatic bird' - I call a duck a DUCK. If something sounds overly loud or compressed, or appears so in a DAW interface, it's probably because it is. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 2 hours ago, jabbr said: There are two entirely different questions which are being conflated here: 1) what is the maximum dynamic range that can be recorded vs 2) what is the maximum dynamic range than can be perceived Those are two significantly different discussions. Folks who are purely interested in perception need to understand the intricacies of recording eg noise shaping — @esldude can say if he intends this thread to discuss perception? Actually I intended to approach #1 first and then proceed to #2. #2 however wasn't intended to become "which recording sounds more dynamic to me". Because it is already known what sounds dynamic vs being of greater dynamic range are two different things altogether. Now some microphones will record cleanly to 155 or 160 db. For stereo pair recordings that isn't of much significance. For up close recording of drum sets or guitar amps it is. From a natural stereo pair recording saying something had a dynamic range of 135 or 140 db wouldn't mean much as the listener at such an event isn't going to sit happily listening at those levels to achieve that. Which is why I did mention 120 db SPL. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted January 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2019 I would say that with best recording gear available, dynamic range capabilities of the gear exceeds both practically realizable background noise and maximum tolerable SPL levels at the same time. So the recording gear (with 24-bit resolution) is not the limiting factor. However, this is more than 16-bit audio-bandwidth (Nyquist at or near 20 kHz) encoding can represent, but less than 24-bit. P.S. As a side note, I would like to remind that you can just fine encode for example 18-, 20-, or 21-bit content in FLAC and have corresponding file size savings. And that is completely standard, and gains smaller files than MQA. So if you want, you can optimize bit usage at mastering stage. esldude and blue2 1 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
crenca Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Excellent topic! I would be interested in comments on the relationship between possible recorded dynamic range as digitally captured and the fact that venue/room is always some number (around 30 it seems). Folks have mentioned this but I am not sure about the implications. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
esldude Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 14 hours ago, Arpiben said: And what about sensivity or S/N? For KM183 S/N = 70 dB (/94dBSPL IEC 60268-1).Noise Floor = 24 dBSPL. Then what about the noise contribution of amplifiers and other analogue equipment before ADC ? Just curious since I have only a rough idea. You may know, but for others that may not. Microphone S/N specs are not what you might think. They use 94 db SPL as a reference (which is one Pascal) and subtract microphone self noise. As Miska said at higher levels the SNR as you are used to seeing with electronic gear would be mostly down to highest distortion. Most good mic pre amps contribute so little noise it isn't an issue. But if you used gain in the mic pre amp this gain applies to the noise from the mic or the ambient noise. So the example I used earlier is with a Shure KSM 44A. With my other gear 25 db of mic pre gain will result in 120 db SPL recording at 0 db fs. The 30 db SPL ambient noise will be 90 db below that 120 db SPL peak level. The self noise of the mic will contribute little being 116 db below peak levels. Arpiben 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now