CD players are back ?

[Ralf11]

7 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

No, it's not. you or I can make claims all day long without studying digital processing. Regardless of who makes claims, the validity of the claims is the evidence that supports or disputes them. Who makes the claims has zero impact of the validity of those claims.

 

This guy is using the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy to support what he says.

 

you are saying that one does NOT need to understand digital processing????

 

are you from Ostrichalia??

 

the validity of the claims is NOT the evidence - the ev. either supports a claim or does not - maybe you meant something else?

[crenca]

This thread has made no sense from the beginning.  Ajay does not seem to have a point, other than some vague audiophile assertions about digital audio that are meant to support audiophile solutions - which is commodity hardware sold at 10, 20, 30X its regular price.

 

Best to let it go I suppose...

[Hugo9000]

8 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

you are saying that one does NOT need to understand digital processing????

 

are you from Ostrichalia??

 

the validity of the claims is NOT the evidence - the ev. either supports a claim or does not - maybe you meant something else?

 

I think he means that the validity of the claims is based on the evidence that supports or disputes them (the claims).  The person making the actual claims doesn't matter, it's the supporting evidence for the claims that matters.

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

are you from Ostrichalia??

 

 Your remarks like this are tiresome and show just how petty a person you really are.

IIRC, diecaster has far more knowledge in the digital area than you ever will.

 

petty

/ˈpɛti/  

adjective

adjective: petty; comparative adjective: pettier; superlative adjective: pettiest

1. 1.

   of little importance; trivial.

   "the petty divisions of party politics"

   synonyms:

   trivial, trifling, minor, small, slight, unimportant, insignificant, inessential, inconsequential, inconsiderable, negligible, paltry, footling, fiddling, niggling, pettifogging, nugatory, of little account; More informalpiffling, piddling, penny-ante; informaltwopenny-halfpenny; informalnickel-and-dime, picayune; vulgar slangchickenshit "a maze of petty regulations"

   antonyms:

   important, serious, major

   • unduly concerned with trivial matters, especially in a small-minded or spiteful way.

     "she thought readers were being petty in writing to complain about blocked paths"

     synonyms:

     small-minded, narrow-minded, mean, ungenerous, grudging, shabby, spiteful "they took other forms of revenge which were no less petty"

     antonyms:

     magnanimous, generous

2. 2.

   of secondary or lesser importance, rank, or scale; minor.

   "a petty official"

[ajay556]

This is my point from the review...thats it

In an era of streaming network-attached digital music sources you might think the time for listening to music as played from spinning silver discs is past, but that isn’t necessarily the case. In fact, if you have read between the lines of commentary from many of our reviewers you might have noticed a quiet trend; namely, a softly spoken preference for the sound quality of music played from discs as compared to the sound of the same music played from network-connected players or servers. It’s hard to say what accounts for this preference, but one explanation may be that top-shelf disc players are able to harvest audio data from discs with very few read errors (and thus minimal intrusion from error detection and correction algorithms) and can likewise present that data in as jitter-free a manner as possible. If that’s the case, then high-quality disc players may still enjoy a worthwhile performance edge vis-à-vis typical streaming solutions, meaning our prized disc collections might in turn have a new lease on life

[ajay556]

16 minutes ago, crenca said:

This thread has made no sense from the beginning.  Ajay does not seem to have a point, other than some vague audiophile assertions about digital audio that are meant to support audiophile solutions - which is commodity hardware sold at 10, 20, 30X its regular price.

 

Best to let it go I suppose...

That is my point - this review  from top magazine

 

In an era of streaming network-attached digital music sources you might think the time for listening to music as played from spinning silver discs is past, but that isn’t necessarily the case. In fact, if you have read between the lines of commentary from many of our reviewers you might have noticed a quiet trend; namely, a softly spoken preference for the sound quality of music played from discs as compared to the sound of the same music played from network-connected players or servers. It’s hard to say what accounts for this preference, but one explanation may be that top-shelf disc players are able to harvest audio data from discs with very few read errors (and thus minimal intrusion from error detection and correction algorithms) and can likewise present that data in as jitter-free a manner as possible. If that’s the case, then high-quality disc players may still enjoy a worthwhile performance edge vis-à-vis typical streaming solutions, meaning our prized disc collections might in turn have a new lease on life

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, ajay556 said:

If that’s the case, then high-quality disc players may still enjoy a worthwhile performance edge vis-à-vis typical streaming solutions, meaning our prized disc collections might in turn have a new lease on life

 

 Especially if the players first save the whole track to internal system memory .

[ajay556]

14 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Especially if the players first save the whole track to internal system memory .

its not as simple as that - if that was the case then streaming ( saved to same internal system memory) would sound the same as a disc? The article states the contrary. My point is making technical comments should be out of this context -  its the listening that speakers louder. I would like to hear from folks who have actually spent time listening to the latest CD transports from hegel, Jadis, CEC, TAD  (using CD drives from sanyo, phillips, etc) 

[fas42]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

I'm not suggesting that best measuring device would automatically also sound best. But let's say there's assumption that fancy clocking thing would reduce jitter. Or that using MacBook as source would increase jitter or noise. These are things that can be verified by measuring. To see if the assumption is true or not.

 

 

In my estimation the very hardest thing to do would be to link some measurable shortfall to the perceived quality. At the moment. If one heard one rig sound worse than the other, the "easy thing to do" would be to hunt around, to find some conventional parameter that shows up more poorly. And say, Ah-hah! I've got you, you mongrel! ... and be completely wrong ...

 

If I was around, I would tweak the poorer sounding setup to beat the better one, perhaps by kneecapping the latter. And that "conventional parameter" would barely move, if at all. So ... you're back to square one ....

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, ajay556 said:

its not as simple as that - if that was the case then streaming ( saved to same internal system memory) would sound the same as a disc? The article states the contrary. My point is making technical comments should be out of this context -  its the listening that speakers louder. 

 Personally, I don't accept that streaming can sound quite as good as direct play from a player of this type, where the ripped contents are saved to memory in an optimised player that does nothing but perform this task, and clocks out the data using a highly stable oscillator.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

I feel like I'm getting much better value from my music collection now that I stream. Previously a CD or LP with three good songs out of eight would rarely be played. Now all my recordings get played. Songs I don't like have been deleted, so I never have to hear them again.

 

Which may be a pity. Quite often the most interesting tracks on an album are the ones that come across the worst when a system is not at a peak - in part because of their complexity. It has happened regularly that the famous track, the "hit", is the most 'boring'; because it is too obvious, and simple in structure - where the muiscians decided to get experimental, and play with ideas; that's the most satisfying to hear, each time - you don't tire of it.

[ajay556]

6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Personally, I don't accept that streaming can sound quite as good as direct play from a player of this type, where the ripped contents are saved to memory in an optimised player that does nothing but perform this task, and clocks out the data using a highly stable oscillator.

Yes i agree - 

[daverich4]

55 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

 

I think he means that the validity of the claims is based on the evidence that supports or disputes them (the claims).  The person making the actual claims doesn't matter, it's the supporting evidence for the claims that matters.

 

That’s what I took away from his post...

[Miska]

52 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Personally, I don't accept that streaming can sound quite as good as direct play from a player of this type, where the ripped contents are saved to memory in an optimised player that does nothing but perform this task, and clocks out the data using a highly stable oscillator.

 

Why would it matter how the data ended up in the memory?

 

And player shouldn't clock out anything. It is DAC that clocks in data...

 

[diecaster]

4 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Why would it matter how the data ended up in the memory?

 

And player shouldn't clock out anything. It is DAC that clocks in data...

 

 

Bingo!

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Why would it matter how the data ended up in the memory?

 

And player shouldn't clock out anything. It is DAC that clocks in data...

 

 

 You are taking me literally. I feel sure that you know what I was trying to say, and I do NOT agree that it is ONLY the quality of the DAC that matters. In any event I was talking about a CD Player like the P.W.T. that plays from internal memory , and an external DAC did not come into the picture.

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Hugo9000 said:

 

I think he means that the validity of the claims is based on the evidence that supports or disputes them (the claims).  The person making the actual claims doesn't matter, it's the supporting evidence for the claims that matters.

 

could be, but if so, he din't put it well

 

the person making a claim definitely means something tho - consider an expert in a field vs. Joe Six Pack

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 You are taking me literally. I feel sure that you know what I was trying to say, and I do NOT agree that it is ONLY the quality of the DAC that matters. In any event I was talking about a CD Player like the P.W.T. that plays from internal memory , and an external DAC did not come into the picture.

 

I still find it all a bit ambiguous... Where do you draw a line? Because my computer can be a CD Player that plays from internal memory, but in addition it can play from internal SSD, HDD, SD-card, from NAS/Roon or stream from the internet. And I can have DAC built-in, like he RME HDSPe AIO card I have in two computers. There the audio clock on the RME card clocks the data out from computer's RAM, asynchronously to what ever the CPU does (because it uses bus-master DMA on PCIe). Or I can build a DAC inside the same computer and connect it either over I2S or USB, for example.

 

Another similar case are the last Oppo BD players, they are pretty normal computers with BD drive, network connectivity and built-in DAC... Many of the recent players run Linux inside. Just like my car too.

 

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, ajay556 said:

its not as simple as that - if that was the case then streaming ( saved to same internal system memory) would sound the same as a disc? The article states the contrary. My point is making technical comments should be out of this context -  its the listening that speakers louder. I would like to hear from folks who have actually spent time listening to the latest CD transports from hegel, Jadis, CEC, TAD  (using CD drives from sanyo, phillips, etc) 

As far as I know, most CD transports are using S/PDIF as output interface. In this context it would be interesting to read comments and impressions from users of Ayre DACs with the new asynchronous S/PDIF input with CD transports. From what I've heard so far, there should be an audible improvement, compared to previous S/PDIF connections. 

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I still find it all a bit ambiguous... Where do you draw a line? Because my computer can be a CD Player that plays from internal memory, but in addition it can play from internal SSD, HDD, SD-card, from NAS/Roon or stream from the internet. And I can have DAC built-in, like he RME HDSPe AIO card I have in two computers. There the audio clock on the RME card clocks the data out from computer's RAM, asynchronously to what ever the CPU does (because it uses bus-master DMA on PCIe). Or I can build a DAC inside the same computer and connect it either over I2S or USB, for example.

 

Another similar case are the last Oppo BD players, they are pretty normal computers with BD drive, network connectivity and built-in DAC... Many of the recent players run Linux inside. Just like my car too.

 

 Miska

 The title of this thread is CD Players are back, and my simplified answer was directed to the OP (Ajay556)

 who fully understood what I was trying to say without elaborating on the subject and drawing purpose built Computers/Servers etc. into the subject.

 Perhaps you need to try something like the latest version of the PWT and see how it compares with typically implemented streaming as used by many members ?
However, I have no doubt that you are able to do better with streamed audio than the bulk of the members.

 

Quote

 I would like to hear from folks who have actually spent time listening to the latest CD transports from hegel, Jadis, CEC, TAD  (using CD drives from sanyo, phillips, etc)  - Ajay556

 

[fas42]

2 hours ago, crenca said:

This thread has made no sense from the beginning.  Ajay does not seem to have a point, other than some vague audiophile assertions about digital audio that are meant to support audiophile solutions - which is commodity hardware sold at 10, 20, 30X its regular price.

 

 

Actually, that's how it works - to get a good solution. Commodity hardware has all the capability to do the job, but the SQ is normally 'screwed' by poor implementation, lack of attention to detail. The "10, 20, 30X its regular price" is paying for the knowledge, the expertise to sort out those fine details - and that delivers, if the right person is doing the job.

 

Most audiophiles live in a bit of fantasy land where if the 'right' components are tossed together, with the 'right' bling, price, or measurements - pick any of the previous three, to suit - that good sound will magically pop out. Ummm, my ears tell me this happens but very rarely - we're still floundering in the mud ...

 

[Miska]

38 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Perhaps you need to try something like the latest version of the PWT and see how it compares with typically implemented streaming as used by many members ?

 

What on earth is PWT?

 

[The_K-Man]

18 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

What on earth is PWT?

 

Yeah!    Not all of us in this 'New Milleneyuhm' speak entirely in acronyms!  lol

[crenca]

2 hours ago, ajay556 said:

That is my point - this review  from top magazine

 

In an era of streaming network-attached digital music sources you might think the time for listening to music as played from spinning silver discs is past, but that isn’t necessarily the case. In fact, if you have read between the lines of commentary from many of our reviewers you might have noticed a quiet trend; namely, a softly spoken preference for the sound quality of music played from discs as compared to the sound of the same music played from network-connected players or servers. It’s hard to say what accounts for this preference, but one explanation may be that top-shelf disc players are able to harvest audio data from discs with very few read errors (and thus minimal intrusion from error detection and correction algorithms) and can likewise present that data in as jitter-free a manner as possible. If that’s the case, then high-quality disc players may still enjoy a worthwhile performance edge vis-à-vis typical streaming solutions, meaning our prized disc collections might in turn have a new lease on life

 

I appreciate your response, but the "..one explanation may be.." from that article is simply not credible.  It makes no sense in relation to how digital communication (and in this case, spinning discs vs servers vs streaming vs fill_in_the_blank) actually works.

 

A much more credible explanation for this alleged "..softly spoken preference.." is the subjectivised, biased, art & wine culture of the audiophile review.  In other words, it's not the technology and engineering, its whats going on in their heads that explains this "preference".

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

What on earth is PWT?

 

 

 See my 2nd post on page 3 of this thread. Even the original would sound better than many members get from PC/Server playback.