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Beginner's shopping list priorities


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22 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

OK so we are back to the DAC that makes the difference in quality

 

The list that @jcbenten provided in the second post would be where I would start.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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3 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

OK so we are back to the DAC that makes the difference in quality

 

Hi Donald,

 

Remember you are putting together a system and that all components (including their synergy) will have an impact on the sound quality, however, in varying degrees. I think you have jumped the gun talking about DACs and software, i.e. you have already assumed your front end will be a PC..... there are many other much more user friendly alternatives.

 

This is not a straight forward process for someone without a lot of experience, otherwise there would be no "hobby" for us enthusiasts as it would be too simple and boring. Also we are all individuals, with our own biases and expectations and we are buying from literally thousands of manufacturers, so you should expect varying degrees of emphasis on what gear is, and is not, important. e.g. some here believe installing thousand dollar cables are critical, you don't and I don't.

 

My best advice to you is to treat the purchase and installation of your system like any other project by starting with a concept stage, then design, purchasing components and finally implementation. Defining your budget, who (and how) is listening, the limitations of your listening environment and the time you are willing to devote to your new system will have the biggest impact.

 

To get you started in the right direction please spend a few minutes providing some basic facts by answering the questions in my previous email as best you can so we can get the "concept" stage of what you wish to achieve clearly defined. It is IMO straight forward after that.

 

1. A total budget for the system, as well as a list of items you already own (in case they can be reused)

 

2. The dimensions of your room and its finishes

 

3. Who will be listening and how - is the system for critical listening solely by yourself in a designated room (e.g home office) or for use by others who may have less technical knowledge (e.g. living room). Reason being is that some front ends are more user friendly than others. Will you require multi room or would you like a second set of speakers on an outside Terrace?

 

4. How much time have you really got? Would you be interested in tinkering with DIY projects or searching through second hand web sites and pawn shops, which can provide 50% savings (and more) on high quality gear. This site's Market Place, Canuck, eBay, Audio Mart are sources of good gear, however, the usual caveats apply.

Good Luck,

 

Ajax

 

 

 

 

 

LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers

OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors

TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650

BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers

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9 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

Having retired, I have a lot of time on my hands and want to put together a decent system

 

It is worthwhile to approach a few local hifi dealers who have the components on your wishlist. They can setup a system to your needs or to your agreed budget, and ask if you are allowed to bring a selection of your own music files on a USB stick.

 

Any choices from the Superphonica Dealer directory page?

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The speakers/room is the most influential in the overall sound and makes a good place to start listening--as long as you keep in mind that whatever is recovered from the source is as good as the signal is ever going to be. Every step between that and your ears can only degrade the recorded music (or do 'nothing').

 

Excellence generally costs, and you will want a "balanced" sound system. Of course what "balanced" means is entirely up to you and your budget.

 

 

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Thanks for all replies, lots to think about

 

I think I am going to have to divide my research into two parts

 

The first is for the 'classic' components of the system (or systems) amp, speakers etc, on which I have been comprehensively advised by Ajax, thanks

 

The second is the delivery of the audio content of digitized files to the amp as aposed to , for example, from a CD player or from vinyl (a 'classic' system)

 

I already have a home network that a small company would be proud of and can, therefore, present a FLAC file resident on my A/V server, or the output from sound software, to anywhere in my house.

 

As I said earlier, I have an advanced knowledge of networking and communications. What is missing is kowledge of exactly how digital audio is organized

 

As an experiment I dug out and old cheap and cheerful DAC (Digihug) that I used for headphone listening when my 'audio out' on a PC went belly up

I selected a FLAC music file with VLC
I selected 'Digital Output (S/PDIF) Digihug USB Audio' as my sound output
The music is now coming out of my headphones (plugged into the little DAC)

I selected 'more bass' in VLC EQ

I now hear 'more bass'

Any change I make in VLC EQ is refleted in what I hear

 

Does this mean that VLC, and other players, reconstitute the audio from FLAC file, adjust the original audio, change the audio back into PCM and send it to the DAC which (blindly) decodes PCM back into audio ?

 

I can not think of any other explanation and this would, therefore, make the player software the most critical part of the whole system by quite a margin

 

MY EDIT    or possibly VLC only ever decodes and then sends audio to PCs internal DAC for digitising and sending to  external DAC  viaUSB

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21 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

...

Does this mean that VLC, and other players, reconstitute the audio from FLAC file, adjust the original audio, change the audio back into PCM and send it to the DAC which (blindly) decodes PCM back into audio ?

 

I can not think of any other explanation and this would, therefore, make the player software the most critical part of the whole system by quite a margin

 

MY EDIT    or possibly VLC only ever decodes and then sends audio to PCs internal DAC for digitising and sending to  external DAC  viaUSB

 

No. Everything from digital audio file (FLAC, MP3, etc.) up to the final DA stage of the DAC takes place in the digital domain (obviously). If you are using USB, or SPDIF out of the PC, the built-in DAC of the PC is not used. VLC (the player software) does not convert to analogue and back to digital (PCM). VLC extracts FLAC, MP3, etc. to PCM. Tone control (DSP) is done directly in PCM, changing the digital PCM stream itself. Digital to analogue conversion *only* takes place in the (external) DAC after the USB, or SPDIF receiver circuitry, which clocks out digital samples to the DA conversion chip of the DAC.

 

I hope this helps.  

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Thanks Abtr, it does help


This is fascinating stuff

 

OK  I get the bit that where the DAC on my sound-card is bypassed when sending to external DAC

 

But I can't get my head around how a piece of software can, on the fly, after it has derived the PCM from the FLAC, then adjust analogue audio qualities in a digital file of zeros and ones in a 24-bit song with a 96kHz sample rate without setting fire to my processor. This is why I assumed that it decoded to audio, applied adjustments and re-digitized to PCM.

 

All I want to do is work out how I can ensure that the PCM bitstream presented to my external DAC is an EXACT, bit for bit, copy of the PCM file which was created in the studio.

 

Attaching an external DAC gives me the choice of 'Digital Output (S/PDIF) USB Audio' and 'Analogue Output USB Audio'(strange wording as they are both digital). I select 'Analogue Output USB Audio' as this bypasses the Linux ALSA sound subsystem framework, thus providing a bit-for-bit unaltered signal and can carry 192 kHz audio

 

I was hoping that VLC would have some sort of 'pass through' setting that says 'just derive PCM and then deliver it to the USB port, bit for bit exactly as you have read it'. I have spent a long time going through every VLC parameter and I can not find it, so I am assuming that if I set all Audio effects to 'OFF' then I will have  a bit for bit PCM bitstream sent to the DAC

 

It is remarkable how little documentation there is on this subject

 

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2 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

Thanks Abtr, it does help


This is fascinating stuff

 

OK  I get the bit that where the DAC on my sound-card is bypassed when sending to external DAC

 

But I can't get my head around how a piece of software can, on the fly, after it has derived the PCM from the FLAC, then adjust analogue audio qualities in a digital file of zeros and ones in a 24-bit song with a 96kHz sample rate without setting fire to my processor. This is why I assumed that it decoded to audio, applied adjustments and re-digitized to PCM.

 

All I want to do is work out how I can ensure that the PCM bitstream presented to my external DAC is an EXACT, bit for bit, copy of the PCM file which was created in the studio.

 

Attaching an external DAC gives me the choice of 'Digital Output (S/PDIF) USB Audio' and 'Analogue Output USB Audio'(strange wording as they are both digital). I select 'Analogue Output USB Audio' as this bypasses the Linux ALSA sound subsystem framework, thus providing a bit-for-bit unaltered signal and can carry 192 kHz audio

 

I was hoping that VLC would have some sort of 'pass through' setting that says 'just derive PCM and then deliver it to the USB port, bit for bit exactly as you have read it'. I have spent a long time going through every VLC parameter and I can not find it, so I am assuming that if I set all Audio effects to 'OFF' then I will have  a bit for bit PCM bitstream sent to the DAC

 

It is remarkable how little documentation there is on this subject

 

Hi Donald,

 

You are on the right track wanting your computer to produce a "bit perfect" PCM stream. There is actually a lot of info around, however, not much currently as the audio software manufacturers determined long ago how to by-pass Windows (and MAC OS) internal audio processing. All leading software manufacturers (Foodbar, Audirvana, J River, Roon etc) will do this for you. It is no longer an issue. You can also buy standalone self contained sources with their own proprietary software and built in hard drives and DACs.

 

With regard to changing the digital file using Digital Signal Processing (DSP), what Abtr advised you above is correct. If you want to equalise your music in someway (to compensate for a poor mix or poor listening environment) the file is altered within the digital domain (or not at all) BEFORE being passed to the DAC for conversion to an electrical (analogue) signal that can be amplified and played back through your speakers.

 

I'm about to start renovating my house and intend building a recording studio and mixing / mastering room for my son who is a budding musician. A father of one of his school mates is a distributor of recording equipment here in Sydney. He has already taught me a lot and will be my mentor on the project.

 

We already have the following recording / mixing set up (apologies in advance if I sound patronising with my explanation).

 

Rode NT-1 Microphone   >   pop filter   >   Apogee Duet Interface (ADC)   >   Digital Analogue Workstation (DAW)   >   Apogee Duet Interface  (DAC)   >   Adam A7 Active Speakers

 

So the process is to sing into the microphone, which is a transducer that creates a small electrIc signal (voltage & current), which is fed into the Apogee Duet, which converts the electrical signal into PCM by acting as an Analogue to Digital Converter (ADC). This creates a digitise sample of the electronic voltage represented by thousands of individual samples every 44.1kHz or 96 kHz etc with an amplitude of 16 bit or 24 bit etc, depending on the resolution you choose. The Apogee  also has a "line in" for electric guitars.

 

This signal is then fed to the DAW - which is specialised software (such as Pro tools, Logic or Ableton) residing on a computer (in our case a Mac Mini), and connected via a USB cable. The DAW software is incredibly versatile and provides many tracks of the digitised music that can then be mixed by altering the volume of the various instruments at different frequencies. It can also use plug ins to add pre recorded instruments such as drums and strings (or whatever) so that when my son records himself singing and playing guitar the final result sounds like he has a whole band behind him.

 

In your case you will not need a DAW (that both records and plays back) but you will need audio software that plays only and that will allow DSP if you are that way inclined .... read Mitchco's book - refer to the bottom of the article on the home page. However, this is stage 2 of your journey.

 

Stage 1 is trying to answer my questions, which look simple but are not.

 

e.g. Your answer to 1 well maybe - I don't know. How much will I have to spend to get good sound. Where's the tipping point - $1k, $2k, $5k, $10k, $15k, $50k where there is minimal improvement above that cost. Maybe it would be easier for you should think of a range of say $2k - $5k. Generally you get better sound the more you spend, but not always, and there are many ways to skin the cat.

 

e.g Home Office could be:

e.g. computer - USB - wireless KEF LS50 with sub (s) for say US$3k, which would sound superb but would limit your upgrade path.

e.g. computer - USB - Benchmark Media PRE / DAC2 (or Mytek Brooklyn) with Adam A7X active speakers (my office system) is now 5 years old and can be found second hand for also around $3k 

 

e.g. Your answer to 3 maybe I actually need 2 or 3 systems. In my situation I have one for serious listening in my home studio, one for general listening in my living room for my family, that allows Spotify streaming and which can also perform home theatre duties. I also have an Apple Express (with an internal DAC) feeding an analogue signal to a $100 Chinese digital integrated amp hooked up to pair of all weather outside speakers (which I found for $200 in a pawn shop). These are located under the eaves for BBQs. Maybe $400 all up and sounds great! Instead of upgrading you just drink more beer.

 

The big plus that has you ahead of the curve is a robust wifi system - absolutely critical for streaming (which you say you don't want - for now - but a great source of finding new music)and t also invaluable for distribution hi rez files around the house to various systems from a NAS.

 

Take your time and enjoy the journey and keep thinking about where and how you want to listen and who will want to listen. 

 

All the best,  

 

 

Ajax

 

 

           

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are 

LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers

OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors

TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650

BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers

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7 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

...

But I can't get my head around how a piece of software can, on the fly, after it has derived the PCM from the FLAC, then adjust analogue audio qualities in a digital file of zeros and ones in a 24-bit song with a 96kHz sample rate without setting fire to my processor. This is why I assumed that it decoded to audio, applied adjustments and re-digitized to PCM.

...

PCM is just a sampled audio signal. A FFT algorithm can very efficiently calculate the frequency components that are present in the signal or in any small part of the signal (say 100ms). Digital tone control or equalization can then change the magnitude of arbitrary frequency components and an inverse FFT gives you the corresponding filtered sample values. All this takes place in the digital domain and can be done fast enough to not introduce unacceptable playback latency.

 

7 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

...

I was hoping that VLC would have some sort of 'pass through' setting that says 'just derive PCM and then deliver it to the USB port, bit for bit exactly as you have read it'. I have spent a long time going through every VLC parameter and I can not find it, so I am assuming that if I set all Audio effects to 'OFF' then I will have  a bit for bit PCM bitstream sent to the DAC

...

I don't think VLC has a setting for so called direct or exclusive (bit perfect) audio playback (WASAPI exclusive mode in Windows). As @Ajax said, there are many software players that do have this option such as Foobar2000 (Windows only), Audirvana, J River, etc. Also streaming services such as Tidal and Qobus have this capability. You have to select your DAC/driver in the player software and select exclusive mode or disable volume control (e.g. in Tidal).

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Note that if you decide on active (powered) speakers, many (such as the KEF LS50w mentioned earlier) have built-in DACs.

 

In this case you don't need an external DAC at all. In fact, if you feed it the analog out from an external DAC it will in many/most cases convert it back to digital so it can do it's internal signal processing/crossover magic before converting it back to analog for output to the amps. Thus double digital conversion  (DAC -> ADC -> DAC).

 

Many pre-amps, Intergrated amps and all AV receivers have built-in DACs, too, for use with passive (non-powered) speakers.

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9 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

But I can't get my head around how a piece of software can, on the fly, after it has derived the PCM from the FLAC, then adjust analogue audio qualities in a digital file of zeros and ones in a 24-bit song with a 96kHz sample rate without setting fire to my processor. This is why I assumed that it decoded to audio, applied adjustments and re-digitized to PCM.

 

All I want to do is work out how I can ensure that the PCM bitstream presented to my external DAC is an EXACT, bit for bit, copy of the PCM file which was created in the studio.

 

 

 

DSP (i.e. EQ, etc.) manipulation of PCM is as they say in the software world, rather "trivial".  Very low powered/speed chips in very cheap electronics (say, sub $100 DAP's) do this with ease.  Your modern computers CPU is not fazed in the least.  Also, try to wrap your head around the difference between PCM and a software container that compresses and/or repackages PCM such as FLAC or MP3.

 

Research "bit perfect" and software players, and how each software player interacts with the OS (you said you are on Linux if memory serves) through driver settings to achieve bit perfect playback.  

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/6/2019 at 5:43 PM, rn701 said:

Many pre-amps, Intergrated amps and all AV receivers have built-in DACs, too, for use with passive (non-powered) speakers.

.

Thanks M701, I have been searching for this answer.  I have my music on an Apple Mac Mini.  I use an Apple TV on my network to connect my music to a Onkyo TX -NR636 AV receiver.  I had assumed that the DAC was either in the Apple TV or the AVR.  The AVR is central to my TV watching, radio and music streaming, and my iTunes library listening.  I have a pair of Boston Acoustic speakers and sub. When we retired and downsized to a condo, I ripped my cd's with iTunes and have been purchasing new songs in the iTunes store. Everything seems to work with decent sound.

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the DAC is in your AVR

 

I don't think any of the songs in the iTunes store are of Redbook quality

 

OTOH, if you are happy with them, no reason to change

 

if unsure, pick a couple of favorites, gut a used CD with them on it, rip & compare - it will be easy to do blind & will let you know if you want to go further

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On 1/4/2019 at 3:53 PM, kumakuma said:

I would place "PC software" at the bottom of your list as every software player converts the data on the drive to the same PCM data.

 

If you're controlling your system from a PC or other such device (phone, tablet, SBC etc as opposed to dedicated proprietary hardware), your software is your working window into your music library - it's how you view, organize, select, control and play your music files. So which player you choose may not make much (if any) difference in sound quality, but it's critical to enjoying your music and system.  Basic players offer little display of information beyond a list of albums and tracks, and some require a fair amount of work to structure album and track lists the way you want to see them. Some have modest library management and display functions that will show album art and a bit of relevant info.  But how they list your files for selection varies greatly, and you'll almost certainly find some software you love and some you hate.  

 

Do a web search on music players for your operating system and you'll find an amazing array of them. Look at the screenshots, play with the demos, and really check them out.  Even doing all that, you'l probably not stick with the first one you try.  Many will show album cover art, but only a few will gather and present comprehensive information like credits, liner notes or equivalent, artist bios, etc. Consider fee-based software too.   A relatively small outlay will buy you a level of ease and sophistication well above any open source package I've tried.  I love JRiver Media Center and Roon, and I use both daily (JRiver for streaming over the internet so I can listen to my music anywhere on my mobile devices and Roon for listening at home).

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1 and 2) Speakers / amp 

You'll want to match the speakers to your amplification for both making sure the amp isn't tainting your love of the sound your speakers make as well as to make sure you've got enough power to listen at whatever volume level you want to achieve. 

 

1a) Subwoofer. If the speaker pair you chose is light on the low-end and you want to fill that in then a sub is the way to do that. However, this can complicate the set-up. This really all depends on what sub you purchase and what its capabilities are to feed it an audio signal.

 

3) Pre-amp or Integrated. 

You don't have a lot of sources so the primary feature you're looking for on a pre-amp is a volume knob. For this reason you may very well want to go integrated. Integrated as in DAC, Streamer, and pre-amp. There are some full integrated systems on the market that also include an amp (like the Naim Uniti line) but now you've hit my main concern with an integrated set-up and that is...

Upgradeability: If your DAC is also your pre-amp then when it comes time to upgrade or try a new DAC that may be more complicated than if you had started with separate components to begin with. Just keep this in mind if you go the integrated route. 

 

4) DAC (if you didn't go integrated) - Spend some time here but remember if you keep this component separate it is the easiest box to swap out and upgrade later. 

A note about DACs... They all sound different. Yes, you're feeding them the same 1's and 0's but they all sound different. I started with no separate DAC and used the DAC in my pre-amp (it was a AV pre with optical/coax inputs) for a long time. I then found a DAC that sounded "better" which really means brought out the bits of the music that I felt my current "DAC" was lacking. Audio is one of those things where you don't really know what you want until you can hear what you've been missing. It's a process. Don't sweat too much on the DAC for now but get a well reviewed one that sounds good to you and just assume this is one bit that will be upgraded in the future. The technology changes rapidly and there is a lot of "tech" in a DAC. 

 

Completing your purchases down to 4 gives you enough gear to start enjoying your music on your new system by simply plugging in a PC via USB and hitting play. That's why I put those things at the top of the list. 

 

Next-up at 5) Build out a better streamer/get better software on that PC. Since you know networking and have that all sorted you'll want to look at setting up something like a Roon server and attaching a Roon endpoint to your DAC. There are a few other options as well. The goal though is to get a pure set of bits over to a device that will deliver those pure bits into your DAC (*unless/until you're using room correction/EQ). You'll also want to download the various high end players that were mentioned above and try them out for yourself. 

 

 6) Room treatments - This should probably be first but since you want to get down to enjoying the music now I say get to listening and work on the room treatments over time. For the optimum in resolution and enjoyment of your brand new gear you will need to fix the room.

 

There is also room correction / EQ and other stuff you can play with but my advise is to take the time and really understand how your system performs tweaking your "perfect bits" to make them perfect in your room. 

 

Then go swap some cables around (especially between your DAC and pre-amp or pre and amp). I know you said this was off limits but..  you might be surprised and after all the work you put in above why not?

 

 

That's the order I'd go. Happy hunting.

 

Oh.. and the other option is something like the Kii Three. Stuff like this didn't exist when I built my system. I've not heard them. I love the concept and they do seem to deliver on their promise. If you want a very quick way to do all of the above they are worth a serious consideration from everything I've read. 

 

 

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