Suggestions for a low-cost DAC?

[Ottoa62]

very good point for sure. I am a member on another site/ forum   ASR  ( audiosciencereview.com) and Bitfrost did not test out well at all. So I can steering clear of it. MODI 3 tested better actually.

[Ralf11]

One of my DACs is a DacMagic.  It still sounds good in comparison to other low cost DACs.  I am not going to claim that it is the best sounding DAC under $xx however, so I'd suggest some comparison listening to candidates, blind if at all possible.

[Taz777]

35 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

very good point for sure. I am a member on another site/ forum   ASR  ( audiosciencereview.com) and Bitfrost did not test out well at all. So I can steering clear of it. MODI 3 tested better actually.

 

I really wouldn't ignore a DAC because of a chart or graph that someone has produced on the Internet. In most cases, nobody with normal hearing would ever hear anything that's shown as abnormal on a graph. There are simply too many variables involved. If it sounds good to you, then it's good enough. I'm at end game with both of my HiFi systems and enjoying beautiful music through Tidal for several hours a day.

 

This whole modern digital HiFi thing reminds me of people on car forums asking which colour car or which trim/engine option they should buy and allowing others to spend their money for them. A test drive of several and buying the one that puts the widest grin on my face has always been my approach! I used that same approach with my latest HiFi systems, returning several DACs, speakers and cables in the process as I wasn't happy with the sound.

[Ottoa62]

With all due respect...I would read this test report.Its not 'just what somebody posted on the internet'. Allot get be gleaned from technical information. 

[exdmd]

1 hour ago, Ottoa62 said:

very good point for sure. I am a member on another site/ forum   ASR  ( audiosciencereview.com) and Bitfrost did not test out well at all. So I can steering clear of it. MODI 3 tested better actually.

 

Better not to get hung up on measurements and instead base your buying decisions on how the DAC sounds in your system. I had both a Modi 3 and Bifrost Multibit at my house at the same time and the Bifrost MB sounded slightly better than the Modi 3. I could live with either of them on a budget but the Modi 3 will be obsolete in a year when Schiit introduces their proprietary USB receiver. Resale value will drop off a cliff. You would be able to upgrade the Bifrost Multibit. ASR has a definite anti-Schiit bias based on their hatred for Yggdrasil.

[Ottoa62]

Taz.you know Amir does an excellent job! Have you had any chance to listen to the Project S2. DAC PRE amp? I thin next to the D50 and a integrated.  That's how I would go....with my existing Linn Lk 140

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

I really wouldn't ignore a DAC because of a chart or graph that someone has produced on the Internet. In most cases, nobody with normal hearing would ever hear anything that's shown as abnormal on a graph.

 

So people with normal hearing should ignore measured errors, but instead are supposed to hear sound differences that are not in the measurements? I find it more likely that the heard differences are due to those measured differences.

 

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

This whole modern digital HiFi thing reminds me of people on car forums asking which colour car or which trim/engine option they should buy and allowing others to spend their money for them. A test drive of several and buying the one that puts the widest grin on my face has always been my approach!

 

For car I look for engine option that is known to be software limited version of most expensive one. Then I get ECU remap for the engine to make it exceed the most expensive model at much lower price!  That puts grin on my face!

 

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

I used that same approach with my latest HiFi systems, returning several DACs, speakers and cables in the process as I wasn't happy with the sound.

 

My method is to first filter out under performing gear using measurements and then from the small remaining set pick the ones that sound best. For cables I look at the parameters that I know to matter (capacitance for analog interconnects and inductance for speaker cables). This way I've been getting very nice results!

 

[exdmd]

Amir is still learning how to use his APx555 analyzer properly. Some of his gaffes are noted in this thread at SBAF. If you believe measurements tell the whole story a Modi 3 sounds better than a Yggdrasil according to Amir's infamous Chart of DACs. Measurements have their place, but since I own both of them I can assure you the Yggdrasil is the better DAC by far. Reasonable audio enthusiasts know not to take measurements too seriously unless they are grossly off and use their ears as the final arbiter.

[Ottoa62]

Since I am new to forums and this side of the hobby, I am learning much. Thank you for the link. I have read it. I am a newbie to ASR. I am not a newbie to music and listening. There is music, LIVE music which I am very keen too, as I am a professional musician, ( trumpet player since age 13 ) I am 66. I am a band leader, I travel the world playing live music. I play in brass bands, orchestra' and I lead and conduct an 18 Jazz band. I do state all this to Gloat" or throw weight around.  LOL   The "disconnect" here is; I am as a hobbyist, and a CHEAP hobbyist who does NOT have a big bank account to buy any number of pieces of audio equipment, I must read as much as I can, but what I can, when I can and then listen for myself. It's a jaded existence for sure.

 

I just sold a M.F V90. It was good I owned it 3 years. I guess I just want to hear something else. SOOOOO,,,what is a slob like me to do? Read and troll the forums and see who is saying what and make my best "deduction" and go from there.

 

I need to get a new dac. I appreciate the candor and great  attitude shown here. You have helped me much today. I will take ASR and other's with a grain of salt.

 

These are the pieces I can afford and I am looking at. I welcome any pieces I may be missing. As far as listening and enjoying music, in general I am looking to my system to recreate as much detail and true to life Timber of each instrument as my budget allows.

 

Topping D50

Cambridge DAC Magic Pro

Project Box S2  dac/pre amp

[Ralf11]

this needs to be updated:

 

 

is $400 in your range?

[Ottoa62]

One thing to note, I do not need my next DAC to drive head phones. Do you believe the D50 to be the best under 400?

2. My high interest in the Project is that is unfoldes MQA yeah...I know, a devil's maze. Still I use Tidal and I have a DF BLACK and MQA sounds pretty darn good. 

 

If the S2 is musical I will be happy and stop the hunt. I like the idea of a DAC PRE amp driving right to a power amp. I'm a minalist at heart. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Ottoa62 said:

One thing to note, I do not need my next DAC to drive head phones. Do you believe the D50 to be the best under 400?

2. My high interest in the Project is that is unfoldes MQA yeah...I know, a devil's maze. Still I use Tidal and I have a DF BLACK and MQA sounds pretty darn good. 

 

If the S2 is musical I will be happy and stop the hunt. I like the idea of a DAC PRE amp driving right to a power amp. I'm a minalist at heart. 

There’s a whole thread here about the S2 you should read. It has a few issues with the firmware and build quality. Not putting it down, just you should be aware before you buy. 

[Ottoa62]

Thank you good to know. Maybe the upgradeable Bitfrost could be the way to go.

 DAC or DAC/pre amp that is the question. Back to the DAC magic. 349.00. Hard to beat.

[left channel]

12 hours ago, Ottoa62 said:

Thank you good to know. Maybe the upgradeable Bitfrost could be the way to go.

 DAC or DAC/pre amp that is the question. Back to the DAC magic. 349.00. Hard to beat.

 

The DACs you're considering are designed around different chips, resulting in different sound signatures. Do you know what you prefer? Amps usually have a larger impact on the sound than DACs, with the influence of a DAC sometimes so subtle it takes a couple weeks of listening to fully describe, but I can say that S2D has a crisp neutral resolving sound signature even when used only as a DAC.

 

I much prefer the AKM-based "Velvet Sound". Although I haven't heard all the DACs you've mentioned, based on reviews I've read I suspect the basic Bifrost has an AKM sound similar to my Modi 2U, while the Bifrost multibit model is a bit more resolving in the treble but still warmer than the S2D. The DAC Magic is based on a Wolfson chip. I liked the Wolfson sound well enough in an old Squeezebox I have, but when I upgraded that with an external Modi 3 heard an improvement immediately (to my ears). As for my S2D, I only use it for testing at this point as I don't find the ESS-based neutral resolving sound a pleasure at all, but others here on this thread will say the exact opposite. 

If your ears prefer one over the other, this aspect of DAC design will be important to you, and you'll have a lot of fun comparing. My spouse does not hear these differences at all though. Everyone's ears and brains are different. That's what makes people so interesting, and why there are so many different DACs out there.

[Ottoa62]

Left channel, I LOVE your post and it's the best I have read! You are 100% correct on the chip. I do not claim to be an expert in this, as I have stated I am a musician I have huge ears and a budget pocket book. You may be very well 100% correct, I seem to be focusing on the "wrong" part of the chain? Splitting hairs on the dac? You feel resolving power lies more with the amp? Hummm, very interesting. Maybe a better higher quality power amp is where I should be putting my $$$ in?

 

With this said, the S2D may very well serve me well. I like the idea of no pre amp so to speak, I'd like a remote, BT would be nice, having MQA is icing on the cake. The DAC magic has all that minus the MQA, which some feel is over rated and for them is not a deal breaker.

 

Are you familiar with the Topping DX3 PRO? It's a loaded piece that uses the AK chips. I will agree with you, I will steer clear of the Sabre chip opting for a warmer more musical sound. From the web:

 

Topping’s DX3 Pro has a long list of excellent specifications, and at the top are the highly regarded XMOS XU208 USB chip with dual AK4493 DACs and an OPA1612 opamp. This combination allows the DAC/amp to drive headphones with great accuracy and power: an impressive 1,000 mW from the eighth-inch jack on the front panel. The unit is quite versatile, too, accepting input via USB, optical, coaxial, and Bluetooth, the last of which supports SBC, AAC, aptX, aptX II, and aptX HD protocols. Looking to pair the DX3 Pro with an even more powerful headphone amp? It can operate as a DAC via its RCA output.

 

When I was selling hi-end audio from 91 to 97, I learned that women have better high frequency hearing, it's genetic and many an audiophile would bring their wives/ girlfriends in to help with feedback on speakers especially. Men genetically are more attuned to lower frequencies. 

 

The MODI 3 has the AK chips and investing to 249.00 gets me the Multi-bit which as we go around the sun with this, is now a consideration? NO remote,  nop pre amp ability but covers the DAC aspect and I can stop messing with it LOL.

 

The DAC Magic with Twin Wolfson is very compelling. There is a local Cambridge dealer, maybe I should borrow one if they offer and try it in my system.  Thank you so much.  AND or, by an S2D with a return policy and check it out.

 

[left channel]

@Ottoa62 glad that helped! I haven't heard the DX3 Pro. My favorite DACs like the so far are designed around the 4490 (so yes you should would consider Modi 3; the USB is not upgradeable but I use USB signal cleaners instead), but the DX3 Pro is likely similar as the circuit around its 4493 chips probably follows AKM design guidelines. On that topic, I'll leave you with my favorite post from the late great Charles Hansen: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/35106-how-does-a-perfect-dac-analog-signal-look-different-than-a-cheap-dac/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-713189

 

Amps are a whole 'nother thread, but for music I have gravitated towards solid-state amps that offer a warm forgiving tube-like flavor, like the NuPrime STA-9 through my Magni 2U preamp/head amp, and for a mix of music and home theater the clearer and stronger but still warm enough NuPrime MCH-K38 through a very transparent Anthem preamp. The NuPrime folks have posted an interesting chart of their amps, a very rare thing for a manufacture to offer, useful for the criteria used as much as for evaluating their products: https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/amp-comparison/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

Next in the chain are headphones and speakers. Don't get me started. 🙂

 

[left channel]

(Wow the beginning of that last post shows what I hope is a rare failure to proofread... too late to change it now.)

[Ottoa62]

Nice follow up...if I had 1300.00. I would probably buy the Rogue Sphnix...

2. Have you read or heard anything on CLASD D amplifiers?  Strong reviews from clients.   I have a Linn lk140 at the moment..pretty musical amp. I just sold a Schiit Saga pre amp..and M.F. V90 DAC I'm looking at a DAC pre amp. Or DAC   and pre amp. Or selling Linn for an integrated amp.  I had and sold an NAD 326bee..I may want to get another one..I did enjoy that piece and it sounded very good. 2nd choice is Yamaha SL 501. 

[left channel]

13 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

Nice follow up...if I had 1300.00. I would probably buy the Rogue Sphnix...

2. Have you read or heard anything on CLASD D amplifiers?  Strong reviews from clients.   I have a Linn lk140 at the moment..pretty musical amp. I just sold a Schiit Saga pre amp..and M.F. V90 DAC I'm looking at a DAC pre amp. Or DAC   and pre amp. Or selling Linn for an integrated amp.  I had and sold an NAD 326bee..I may want to get another one..I did enjoy that piece and it sounded very good. 2nd choice is Yamaha SL 501. 

 

I'm all about the follow up. 🙂 For all these things, sometimes it's best to try the cheaper options first to figure out what you like.

We should probably start a new thread on amps, but: I'm sure the Linn sounds great. There are many Linn fans over on pinkfishmedia.net if you'd like to discuss new options with fellow owners. Schiit focuses on Class A amps, though their new Aegir small amp will be some kind of hybrid Class A. NuPrime makes hybrid Class D amps and they have a lot to say about that here: https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/amp-design/?v=7516fd43adaa I like the sound of their warm amps, but that's not all there is to it and for example I hated the neutral resolving STA-6. The main reason I brought them up is that the chart I linked to above is so useful for evaluating all amps.

[Shangri-La]

54 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

Nice follow up...if I had 1300.00. I would probably buy the Rogue Sphnix...

2. Have you read or heard anything on CLASD D amplifiers?  Strong reviews from clients.   I have a Linn lk140 at the moment..pretty musical amp. I just sold a Schiit Saga pre amp..and M.F. V90 DAC I'm looking at a DAC pre amp. Or DAC   and pre amp. Or selling Linn for an integrated amp.  I had and sold an NAD 326bee..I may want to get another one..I did enjoy that piece and it sounded very good. 2nd choice is Yamaha SL 501. 

 

Why did you sell your MF V90? It's very well reviewed and measured. Not sure if you can gain anything by going with D50 etc, especially if the rest of your system is not that revealing.

[Ralf11]

I've heard the big Rogue amp and it is very "liquid" in a good way.

 

I changed my amp recently - a NuPrime but not the Class D one - $400 and it is very nice; you can find a thread on here which I started - it was active last week if not more recently

 

It is true that different technologies result in some different sound qualities in a DAC; IIRC the DacMagic is an R2R type.

 

Also, by AKM he means Asahi Kasei Microdevices, a leading manf. of mixed signal devices, not the assault rifle...

 

 

 

[Ottoa62]

36 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

 

Why did you sell your MF V90? It's very well reviewed and measured. Not sure if you can gain anything by going with D50 etc, especially if the rest of your system is not that revealing.

SOLD it to find something else. One of those decisions...LOL .

[left channel]

@Ralf11 do you mean this thread?
 

 

[Ottoa62]

http://classdaudio.com/

[Ottoa62]

AS I drill down on this, * WITH ALL of the folks contributing; I should keep the Lionn LK 140 and get a DAC/PRE amp  it's either the S2D or the Dac magic plus  the former being the Sabre chips and MQA  vs  dual wolfson. Both pieces are attractive.