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Suggestions for a low-cost DAC?


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3 hours ago, Taz777 said:

 

After two hours of late night listening using my Topping D50 DAC, I honestly cannot notice this IMD bump represented by the graph. Not all of my music is recorded nicely, however I do have a few tracks that are exceptionally well recorded with a wide dynamic range, plenty of instruments, and quiet and loud parts.

 

Individual instruments were placed nicely in the soundstage and sounded like real musical instruments to me, to the extent that a bass drum was felt in my chest and a triangle felt like someone tapped my skull.

 

If anyone knows of tracks, preferably available on Tidal, that could illustrate this IMD hump in ESS DAC chips then please let me know. I'm keen to try to hear this issue before my AKM -based DAC arrives so that I can figure out exactly what to listen for.

 

Of course, it could be that my hearing is not good enough to hear this IMD.

 

It could very well be that the hump indeed is not audible in real-world listening. If you look at the same graph of the Pro ject Pre Box S2 Digital which uses the same ESS chip, it also has the hump. The hump is less obvious because at lower generator level, the IMD ratio is a lot higher than the Topping D50.  

Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature

Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ???

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Regarding what I'd posted about upsampling and lower noise, see the measurements here:

 

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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On 1/6/2019 at 7:00 AM, Taz777 said:

 

After two hours of late night listening using my Topping D50 DAC, I honestly cannot notice this IMD bump represented by the graph. Not all of my music is recorded nicely, however I do have a few tracks that are exceptionally well recorded with a wide dynamic range, plenty of instruments, and quiet and loud parts.

 

Individual instruments were placed nicely in the soundstage and sounded like real musical instruments to me, to the extent that a bass drum was felt in my chest and a triangle felt like someone tapped my skull.

 

If anyone knows of tracks, preferably available on Tidal, that could illustrate this IMD hump in ESS DAC chips then please let me know. I'm keen to try to hear this issue before my AKM -based DAC arrives so that I can figure out exactly what to listen for.

 

Of course, it could be that my hearing is not good enough to hear this IMD.

 

See my post here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ess-thd-‘hump’-investigation.5752/page-8#post-136999 

Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature

Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ???

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On 1/6/2019 at 6:32 AM, Shangri-La said:

After more research, the Chord Mojo seems to be THE DAC TO BEAT around its price range. hmm..

 

I have one, but I gave up trying to use it for anything due to various problems...

 

I would say Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital, correctly configured and used beats it in all possible ways. And same actually goes for iFi micro iDSD BL too. For either of these, don't use the manufacturer default/recommended settings.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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On 1/3/2019 at 8:26 AM, Shangri-La said:

I'm building a desktop system for computer and casual music listening (streaming and CD-ripped tracks). The speakers are ELAC Debut 2.0 bookshelf B6.2. Amp will be most likely the Akitika GT-102 which is a recent Stereophile Class B power amp at amamzingly $500. It's proabaly a bit overkill for the ELAC but it's too tempting to resist. 

 

Now I need a DAC. I was leaning towards the Musical Fidelity V-90, which was a Stereophile Class A DAC, which I assume will be enough for the new setup. But it's a 5-year old product and I'm hoping if there a are newer DACs around that perform nearly as well at a lower cost. Any sugguestions? Thanks. 

 

PS - I was also considering the PS audio Sprout 100 integrated amp, but believe the seperates will give me better sound. 

 

PPS - what about the Schiit Modi 3? It measures very well and gets a great review at audio science review. 

Not sure what the consensus of opinion of FIIO DAC's, but they have just released the K3 for desktop use.:

https://www.fiio.com/k3

 

I've been looking at it for the past couple of weeks, as it sports fs256 DSD and 32/384 PCM specs. If all works out I plan to purchase it.

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I liken our hobby to art galleries. You could measure a painting scientifically as various colours and get great enjoyment from the spectrum of colours used, the brush strokes, the quality of the canvas, the opacity or otherwise of the paints used etc. Or you could stand in front of one for an hour and experience intense, raw emotions, re-living what the artist was experiencing when he or she was creating that painting. HiFi is a means to the latter end for me.

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On 1/3/2019 at 9:25 PM, Shangri-La said:

 

Yeah the D50 is looking really nice. Just that "hump" bothers me a bit. Not sure how that translates to realworld listening.. 

Topping D50 DAC SMPTE Intermodulation Measurement.png

 

I received my Topping DX3 Pro a couple of days ago and have put in several hours of listening. My detailed conclusions are posted in another forum.

 

I made this purchase to sample the difference between AKM (velvet sound) and ESS DAC chips. So, the DX3 Pro has twin AKM DAC chips and the D50 has twin ESS DAC chips.

 

A summary of what I've posted elsewhere is this:

 

1. Topping D50 is clearer, has a wider soundstage, separates instruments better, has much deeper bass that can be heard, has sharper treble (piano notes, for example). A description I've used for the deep bass drops is the feeling of a thump in my chest when listening via my headphones. As for sharp piano notes, it feels like someone has tapped the inside of my skull. That's the best way I can describe the bass and treble of the D50. Vocals are a weak area of the D50, compared to the DX3 Pro.

 

2. DX3 Pro is actually completely missing some deep bass - I was listening via my beyerdynamic Amiron Home headphones that are quite revealing. It also puts everything together towards the centre of the soundstage. It also struggles to separate instruments as clearly as the D50. However, vocals are presented in a truly beautiful way. Vocals are brought forward compared to the D50 and are its strongest point in terms of sound quality.

 

So, graphs are great, but I would focus on what your system as a whole sounds like to you and whether you like the sound or not.

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13 hours ago, Taz777 said:

 

I received my Topping DX3 Pro a couple of days ago and have put in several hours of listening. My detailed conclusions are posted in another forum.

 

I made this purchase to sample the difference between AKM (velvet sound) and ESS DAC chips. So, the DX3 Pro has twin AKM DAC chips and the D50 has twin ESS DAC chips.

 

A summary of what I've posted elsewhere is this:

 

1. Topping D50 is clearer, has a wider soundstage, separates instruments better, has much deeper bass that can be heard, has sharper treble (piano notes, for example). A description I've used for the deep bass drops is the feeling of a thump in my chest when listening via my headphones. As for sharp piano notes, it feels like someone has tapped the inside of my skull. That's the best way I can describe the bass and treble of the D50. Vocals are a weak area of the D50, compared to the DX3 Pro.

 

2. DX3 Pro is actually completely missing some deep bass - I was listening via my beyerdynamic Amiron Home headphones that are quite revealing. It also puts everything together towards the centre of the soundstage. It also struggles to separate instruments as clearly as the D50. However, vocals are presented in a truly beautiful way. Vocals are brought forward compared to the D50 and are its strongest point in terms of sound quality.

 

So, graphs are great, but I would focus on what your system as a whole sounds like to you and whether you like the sound or not.

 

Thanks for the update! I will most likely give the D50 a try.

Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature

Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ???

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18 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

 

Thanks for the update! I will most likely give the D50 a try.

 

Something I should have added: I used the DX3 Pro in DAC mode. It has several additional features compared to the D50 like Bluetooth and a built-in headphone amp. Those features were not important to me so I just set it to DAC mode. 

 

As as soon as the 15V 1.5A LPS for the DX3 Pro arrives, I’ll be installing it in my computer based audio system, which also currently has a Topping D50, to see how it fares.

 

Two more nice things about the DX3 Pro: it comes with a remote control which is very useful, and the display on it is easily readable (compared to the tiny display of the D50).

 

However, for my headphones system, the D50 is the winner.

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Okay I received my order of the D50 from Amazon and had a try in my main system. I replaced the DAC part of my integrated amp with D50, and the difference is quite noticeable. Maybe it can work in my desktop system which is less revealing. I'll let the D50 burn in for a week and give it another try. 

Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature

Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ???

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I'm in the same boat. Of all said, I'm surprised no one had mentioned the ifi Nano 1 for 199.00. Which adds MQA to the mix..dsd and Bluetooth. I'm a big Schiit fan, have owned many products currently own the Saga preamp., Had a modi 2 Uber...  I sold my V90 this week. I'm listening through a Audioquest DF black. Tidal in HiFi mode and Masters. MQA Is very good!! For 199.00. I can't seem to find anything that can touch it  Through Modi Multi bit for 249.00. Is a very close consideration!  But no MQA. That's the deal breaker for me. It will probably sound better than the new Nano but overall ifi is s much better value and no slouch in performance.

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On 1/6/2019 at 12:24 PM, DuckToller said:

From my subjective sound experience, they rank like that:
2. Gieseler Klein DAC (2015) - 500 USD -  up to 24/192 . 4 years ago a real value for money device with the AKM4490EQ Chip and a proper output stage.

 

There is a new Gieseler Klein DAC, the Klein III, which outperforms the Klein from 2015:

 

https://www.gieseler.com.au/product-page/m16d-klein-dac-iii

 

Please note: The currency in the link is AUD.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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On 1/22/2019 at 3:35 PM, Ottoa62 said:

I guess I am down to either a D50, or a Nano 1  and or a ifi idsd bl?  I do not really need a headphone set though. And I do want MQA. I do have an AQ  DF Black doing Tidal MQA. Is the D50 so MUCH better than either ifi?

 

I have the iFi Nano iDSD BL that hardly ever gets used these days. Its main use is as a portable/transportable DAC for use with a phone and headphones. Whilst it does MQA, bear in mind that DACs that don't do MQA will still get the first unfold to 88.2kHz or 96kHz typically by the player app.

 

For me the Topping D50 beats my iFi Nano iDSD BL, despite the latter doing MQA.

 

If you're really into Tidal MQA and want a desktop DAC which also opens up future streaming possibility, then consider the Bluesound Node 2i streamer. I have one of those in my bedroom headphones setup and it's pretty good, and its DAC does MQA. It can be used as a fully-fledged streamer/DAC/headphone amp or just a Tidal transport that connects to an external DAC. It's controlled via a phone/tablet app. I'm using it purely as a Tidal transport that connects to one of my Topping D50 DACs, simply because I prefer the sound.

 

It's all very subjective though. The Node 2i has very favourable reviews for its audio quality (straight out of its 3.5mm headphone jack or rear RCA jacks). Thus, you would be able to integrate into your existing stereo system's amp without buying anything else.

 

I didn't get on with the audio quality of the Node 2i though. YMMV.

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2 hours ago, matthias said:

There is a new Gieseler Klein DAC, the Klein III, which outperforms the Klein from 2015:

Thank you Matt, for the update,

I think I have read last year, that Clay now has officially limited shipping to Australia only.
IOW, for shipping outside of Australia, a personal note to the manufacturer might make things possible 😉

 

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2 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Thank you Matt, for the update,

I think I have read last year, that Clay now has officially limited shipping to Australia only.
IOW, for shipping outside of Australia, a personal note to the manufacturer might make things possible 😉

 

My pleasure!

Yes, I have seen this remark too. My understanding is that the shipping costs inside Australia are included, but I think Clay will ship his devices outside also charging the additional costs.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/9/2019 at 11:54 AM, Iain said:

Not sure what the consensus of opinion of FIIO DAC's, but they have just released the K3 for desktop use.:

https://www.fiio.com/k3

I've been looking at it for the past couple of weeks, as it sports fs256 DSD and 32/384 PCM specs. If all works out I plan to purchase it.

 

Did you buy it?

If yes, what is your verdict?

Thanks

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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For me, I have not bought anything since I returned the NANO 1. I am either going to get a Project S2 box Dac/ pre amp, or a Cambridge DAC magic plus.  In no order, I may replace my pre amp which I sold yesterday ( SCHIIT SAGA )  with an integrated amp and buy the D50 and call it a day. I have a LIMM LK 140 I have been using I am going to list today.

 

So it's   dac/pre and now amp  OR   D50 and integrated.

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I prefer to buy gear that can be upgraded by use of replaceable boards so no planned obsolescence, and also know that Schiit will be coming out with their own USB implementation within a year that may well change the industry. View Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard's video at RMAF 2018 for details. The least expensive multibit DAC Schiit sells with an upgradeable USB board is the Bifrost Multibit at $599 which is what I would be buying now on a budget. With the availability of Qobuz now streaming 24/96 and 24/192 I believe MQA will fade away as folks who stream leave Tidal for Qobuz. I've already dropped my Tidal subscription and kept Qobuz.

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18 minutes ago, exdmd said:

I prefer to buy gear that can be upgraded by use of replaceable boards so no planned obsolescence, and also know that Schiit will be coming out with their own USB implementation within a year that may well change the industry.

 

Getting rid of USB altogether would be good first step to change the industry... ;)

 

19 minutes ago, exdmd said:

I believe MQA will fade away as folks who stream leave Tidal for Qobuz. I've already dropped my Tidal subscription and kept Qobuz.

 

Only if MQA wouldn't be creeping into Qobuz too... :(

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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