Shangri-La Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Taz777 said: After two hours of late night listening using my Topping D50 DAC, I honestly cannot notice this IMD bump represented by the graph. Not all of my music is recorded nicely, however I do have a few tracks that are exceptionally well recorded with a wide dynamic range, plenty of instruments, and quiet and loud parts. Individual instruments were placed nicely in the soundstage and sounded like real musical instruments to me, to the extent that a bass drum was felt in my chest and a triangle felt like someone tapped my skull. If anyone knows of tracks, preferably available on Tidal, that could illustrate this IMD hump in ESS DAC chips then please let me know. I'm keen to try to hear this issue before my AKM -based DAC arrives so that I can figure out exactly what to listen for. Of course, it could be that my hearing is not good enough to hear this IMD. It could very well be that the hump indeed is not audible in real-world listening. If you look at the same graph of the Pro ject Pre Box S2 Digital which uses the same ESS chip, it also has the hump. The hump is less obvious because at lower generator level, the IMD ratio is a lot higher than the Topping D50. Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ??? Link to comment
Jud Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Regarding what I'd posted about upsampling and lower noise, see the measurements here: 4est 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Shangri-La Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 7:00 AM, Taz777 said: After two hours of late night listening using my Topping D50 DAC, I honestly cannot notice this IMD bump represented by the graph. Not all of my music is recorded nicely, however I do have a few tracks that are exceptionally well recorded with a wide dynamic range, plenty of instruments, and quiet and loud parts. Individual instruments were placed nicely in the soundstage and sounded like real musical instruments to me, to the extent that a bass drum was felt in my chest and a triangle felt like someone tapped my skull. If anyone knows of tracks, preferably available on Tidal, that could illustrate this IMD hump in ESS DAC chips then please let me know. I'm keen to try to hear this issue before my AKM -based DAC arrives so that I can figure out exactly what to listen for. Of course, it could be that my hearing is not good enough to hear this IMD. See my post here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ess-thd-‘hump’-investigation.5752/page-8#post-136999 Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ??? Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 @Shangri-La Indeed. The best measuring equipment I own is my ears! Shangri-La 1 Link to comment
Miska Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 6:32 AM, Shangri-La said: After more research, the Chord Mojo seems to be THE DAC TO BEAT around its price range. hmm.. I have one, but I gave up trying to use it for anything due to various problems... I would say Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital, correctly configured and used beats it in all possible ways. And same actually goes for iFi micro iDSD BL too. For either of these, don't use the manufacturer default/recommended settings. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Iain Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 On 1/3/2019 at 8:26 AM, Shangri-La said: I'm building a desktop system for computer and casual music listening (streaming and CD-ripped tracks). The speakers are ELAC Debut 2.0 bookshelf B6.2. Amp will be most likely the Akitika GT-102 which is a recent Stereophile Class B power amp at amamzingly $500. It's proabaly a bit overkill for the ELAC but it's too tempting to resist. Now I need a DAC. I was leaning towards the Musical Fidelity V-90, which was a Stereophile Class A DAC, which I assume will be enough for the new setup. But it's a 5-year old product and I'm hoping if there a are newer DACs around that perform nearly as well at a lower cost. Any sugguestions? Thanks. PS - I was also considering the PS audio Sprout 100 integrated amp, but believe the seperates will give me better sound. PPS - what about the Schiit Modi 3? It measures very well and gets a great review at audio science review. Not sure what the consensus of opinion of FIIO DAC's, but they have just released the K3 for desktop use.: https://www.fiio.com/k3 I've been looking at it for the past couple of weeks, as it sports fs256 DSD and 32/384 PCM specs. If all works out I plan to purchase it. http://www.soundonsound.com/ Link to comment
Popular Post mrmb Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 1:52 PM, Shangri-La said: But I want to know the performance between different products, price no object. Measurements do that for me, as does Stereophile's class rating. In the mean time, I tend to prefer newer released products, as I believe DAC (along with high res source) is proabaly the component in a hifi system that benefits the most from recent technolygy improvements. In the range you're considering, not a bad way to make a selection. In fact, several decades ago -- minus the need for measurements -- I relied upon similar logic. However, with the advent of audio forums, professional reviews are now very minimal place holders (if at all) in my audio product selection process and measurements are irrelevant. As a previous poster suggested, my ears are the ONLY measurement devices I require; pleasing them is my ONLY goal -- why I am in this hobby. I ONLY want to know how a product sounds in my system. I don't care about its component parts, its aesthetics, etc. How does it sound and does it please me is the only question I want to know the answer to? Not does it have appealing charts, graphs etc.? Imaging, soundstage, the-you-are-at-the performance illusion can't be answered by measurements. If for example, the questions: of does a trumpet sound like a trumpet, or more importantly, how well does a component recreate a performance could be answered by measurements, forums like this wouldn't exist and we would all be procuring the components that manage to spit out the absolute best measurements -- i.e., is this one 0.001% better here and there, than its competition? Maybe a place to start, but hardly the place to end; unless of course, one is more concerned with being "right" as opposed to being personally satisfied by the end result -- allowing lab measurements and the conclusions of others to be the zero factors they should be. Once I got away from professional reviews, because information was so available elsewhere, I discovered several amazing boutique products that rarely, if ever, make it to the pages of advertising containing publications. Some of these are sold direct and the only way to learn of them is reading, sifting.....reading, sifting etc. Yeah, it takes thousands of hours; but after putting in the time and effort, one finds information and poster's that ring true, because you can manage to ascertain that their listening priorities are similar to yours etc. However, at a price range of a AQ DragonFly Red, periodical reviews are a good way to initiate painting a picture, along with doing what you've done here. With all angst aside, you probably can't really go wrong with whatever you choose.... motberg, exdmd, Teresa and 1 other 1 2 1 -Mike Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 So, how do you know you are relying on your ears alone, and not on some form of mental bias? Link to comment
Popular Post mrmb Posted January 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: So, how do you know you are relying on your ears alone, and not on some form of mental bias? At university, my learning of the scientific method struck a significant and notable chord. I embraced it with a passion. Thus, I l understand conformation bias Et al. Bias is with us every minute of every day -- optical illusions are simple but significantly potent examples of how constantly and consistently biased we view the world. We learn to view the world as we learn everything else and oftentimes we simply get it wrong. Life is constant learning if we doing as we should. There are few givens and even those are subject to change as we progress as a species. As it was important to me, I have worked 24/7/365 towards an objective way of looking at the world. Can I perfectly do this? Heck no, NEVER! After many experiments and more years than I care to count, mental bias is maintained as a given and is always a possibility. So what?!? It isn’t a bad or good thing, it just is. There is no right, wrong, component or rig here. How can one quantify beauty? Yep, it is in the eye (or in this case, ear) of the beholder, NOT in a measurement!! I treat this hobby as a way to relax and meditate, not one where I must continue to browse and analyze charts and graphs. As important as these are in other instances, my subjective music reproduction appreciation has not been biased by these, unless of course an audio designer of my components has used them to enhance and voice their products as I imagine some have. The very premise of this hobby is an illusion. We're trying to recreate a performance in our personal environment that occurred at some other time and place. During the best of times, we may lull ourselves into thinking we have done this. Being able to do this repeatedly has been my goal. To my satisfaction and pleasure, it works very well. But listening to my system, would it be that way for anyone else? Who knows and why should I care? Many years ago while he was taking percussion lessons, I took my son to his first symphonic performance. I asked him what do you think. He said it sounds like your stereo. Was he biased by the way I asked the question or what he thought I wanted him to say? Maybe or not! But at the time, my rig sounded pretty darn good when compared to a live performance or a solo instrument. It is even better today. But no system today (at least) can replicate a single live instrument, let alone an orchestral crescendo! With the former, we can get pretty darn close and I suppose that is what we’re seeking. At any rate, my son as I, is now an avid audiophile. His first job after graduating with a computer science degree was with a major and historic audio equipment manufacturer. He had the pleasure of taking our hobby into his work by being involved with many double-blind listening tests; providing the engineers with several of my so-called audiophile recordings. He learned a bunch about bias and himself, but more importantly his audio tastes. Yes we all have them or should if we’ve spent enough time “educating” ourselves to our preferences by listening to as many different and divergent types of equipment as we can (not by analyzing measurements). My son and I do listen and compare and contrast what we’re hearing. We only do so separately and without prejudicing each other with our thoughts or conclusions before conveying them. Does this remove all bias? Of course it doesn’t! But we’ve ended up with pretty darn satisfying results via the various systems we own – none of which relied a wit on our analyzation of scientific measurements. My son has his audio priorities and I mine. Sometimes they overlap; other times, not so much. Does that make one of us right and the other wrong, heck no. What it means is that he enjoys what he does and I enjoy what I do. But all of our various audio and video systems make each of us smile, no matter whose system we’re listening to, when. But in absolutely NO instance have measurements evoked that smile or goose bumps or even the tears upon hearing a beautiful instrument, voice, or a never-to-be repeated performance…. It is unimportant whether anyone else obtains the same result as we. We’re not seeking a peer reviewed consensus or a replication of our personally satisfying conclusions – just beautiful, blissful recreations of memorable performances.... RickyV, Taz777, DuckToller and 3 others 5 1 -Mike Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 I liken our hobby to art galleries. You could measure a painting scientifically as various colours and get great enjoyment from the spectrum of colours used, the brush strokes, the quality of the canvas, the opacity or otherwise of the paints used etc. Or you could stand in front of one for an hour and experience intense, raw emotions, re-living what the artist was experiencing when he or she was creating that painting. HiFi is a means to the latter end for me. motberg 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 22 hours ago, mrmb said: I l understand conformation bias Et al. You have put your thumb on the problem, that's for sure Ralf11 1 Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 On 1/3/2019 at 9:25 PM, Shangri-La said: Yeah the D50 is looking really nice. Just that "hump" bothers me a bit. Not sure how that translates to realworld listening.. I received my Topping DX3 Pro a couple of days ago and have put in several hours of listening. My detailed conclusions are posted in another forum. I made this purchase to sample the difference between AKM (velvet sound) and ESS DAC chips. So, the DX3 Pro has twin AKM DAC chips and the D50 has twin ESS DAC chips. A summary of what I've posted elsewhere is this: 1. Topping D50 is clearer, has a wider soundstage, separates instruments better, has much deeper bass that can be heard, has sharper treble (piano notes, for example). A description I've used for the deep bass drops is the feeling of a thump in my chest when listening via my headphones. As for sharp piano notes, it feels like someone has tapped the inside of my skull. That's the best way I can describe the bass and treble of the D50. Vocals are a weak area of the D50, compared to the DX3 Pro. 2. DX3 Pro is actually completely missing some deep bass - I was listening via my beyerdynamic Amiron Home headphones that are quite revealing. It also puts everything together towards the centre of the soundstage. It also struggles to separate instruments as clearly as the D50. However, vocals are presented in a truly beautiful way. Vocals are brought forward compared to the D50 and are its strongest point in terms of sound quality. So, graphs are great, but I would focus on what your system as a whole sounds like to you and whether you like the sound or not. Link to comment
Shangri-La Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 13 hours ago, Taz777 said: I received my Topping DX3 Pro a couple of days ago and have put in several hours of listening. My detailed conclusions are posted in another forum. I made this purchase to sample the difference between AKM (velvet sound) and ESS DAC chips. So, the DX3 Pro has twin AKM DAC chips and the D50 has twin ESS DAC chips. A summary of what I've posted elsewhere is this: 1. Topping D50 is clearer, has a wider soundstage, separates instruments better, has much deeper bass that can be heard, has sharper treble (piano notes, for example). A description I've used for the deep bass drops is the feeling of a thump in my chest when listening via my headphones. As for sharp piano notes, it feels like someone has tapped the inside of my skull. That's the best way I can describe the bass and treble of the D50. Vocals are a weak area of the D50, compared to the DX3 Pro. 2. DX3 Pro is actually completely missing some deep bass - I was listening via my beyerdynamic Amiron Home headphones that are quite revealing. It also puts everything together towards the centre of the soundstage. It also struggles to separate instruments as clearly as the D50. However, vocals are presented in a truly beautiful way. Vocals are brought forward compared to the D50 and are its strongest point in terms of sound quality. So, graphs are great, but I would focus on what your system as a whole sounds like to you and whether you like the sound or not. Thanks for the update! I will most likely give the D50 a try. Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ??? Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, Shangri-La said: Thanks for the update! I will most likely give the D50 a try. Something I should have added: I used the DX3 Pro in DAC mode. It has several additional features compared to the D50 like Bluetooth and a built-in headphone amp. Those features were not important to me so I just set it to DAC mode. As as soon as the 15V 1.5A LPS for the DX3 Pro arrives, I’ll be installing it in my computer based audio system, which also currently has a Topping D50, to see how it fares. Two more nice things about the DX3 Pro: it comes with a remote control which is very useful, and the display on it is easily readable (compared to the tiny display of the D50). However, for my headphones system, the D50 is the winner. Link to comment
Shangri-La Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 Okay I received my order of the D50 from Amazon and had a try in my main system. I replaced the DAC part of my integrated amp with D50, and the difference is quite noticeable. Maybe it can work in my desktop system which is less revealing. I'll let the D50 burn in for a week and give it another try. Setup #1: GoldenEar Triton Reference --> Parasound Halo Integrated --> Allo DigiOne Signature Setup #2: ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 --> Akitika GT-102 --> ??? Link to comment
Ottoa62 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I'm in the same boat. Of all said, I'm surprised no one had mentioned the ifi Nano 1 for 199.00. Which adds MQA to the mix..dsd and Bluetooth. I'm a big Schiit fan, have owned many products currently own the Saga preamp., Had a modi 2 Uber... I sold my V90 this week. I'm listening through a Audioquest DF black. Tidal in HiFi mode and Masters. MQA Is very good!! For 199.00. I can't seem to find anything that can touch it Through Modi Multi bit for 249.00. Is a very close consideration! But no MQA. That's the deal breaker for me. It will probably sound better than the new Nano but overall ifi is s much better value and no slouch in performance. Link to comment
Ottoa62 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I guess I am down to either a D50, or a Nano 1 and or a ifi idsd bl? I do not really need a headphone set though. And I do want MQA. I do have an AQ DF Black doing Tidal MQA. Is the D50 so MUCH better than either ifi? Link to comment
matthias Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 12:24 PM, DuckToller said: From my subjective sound experience, they rank like that: 2. Gieseler Klein DAC (2015) - 500 USD - up to 24/192 . 4 years ago a real value for money device with the AKM4490EQ Chip and a proper output stage. There is a new Gieseler Klein DAC, the Klein III, which outperforms the Klein from 2015: https://www.gieseler.com.au/product-page/m16d-klein-dac-iii Please note: The currency in the link is AUD. Matt DuckToller 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Taz777 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 3:35 PM, Ottoa62 said: I guess I am down to either a D50, or a Nano 1 and or a ifi idsd bl? I do not really need a headphone set though. And I do want MQA. I do have an AQ DF Black doing Tidal MQA. Is the D50 so MUCH better than either ifi? I have the iFi Nano iDSD BL that hardly ever gets used these days. Its main use is as a portable/transportable DAC for use with a phone and headphones. Whilst it does MQA, bear in mind that DACs that don't do MQA will still get the first unfold to 88.2kHz or 96kHz typically by the player app. For me the Topping D50 beats my iFi Nano iDSD BL, despite the latter doing MQA. If you're really into Tidal MQA and want a desktop DAC which also opens up future streaming possibility, then consider the Bluesound Node 2i streamer. I have one of those in my bedroom headphones setup and it's pretty good, and its DAC does MQA. It can be used as a fully-fledged streamer/DAC/headphone amp or just a Tidal transport that connects to an external DAC. It's controlled via a phone/tablet app. I'm using it purely as a Tidal transport that connects to one of my Topping D50 DACs, simply because I prefer the sound. It's all very subjective though. The Node 2i has very favourable reviews for its audio quality (straight out of its 3.5mm headphone jack or rear RCA jacks). Thus, you would be able to integrate into your existing stereo system's amp without buying anything else. I didn't get on with the audio quality of the Node 2i though. YMMV. Link to comment
DuckToller Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 hours ago, matthias said: There is a new Gieseler Klein DAC, the Klein III, which outperforms the Klein from 2015: Thank you Matt, for the update, I think I have read last year, that Clay now has officially limited shipping to Australia only. IOW, for shipping outside of Australia, a personal note to the manufacturer might make things possible 😉 Link to comment
matthias Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, DuckToller said: Thank you Matt, for the update, I think I have read last year, that Clay now has officially limited shipping to Australia only. IOW, for shipping outside of Australia, a personal note to the manufacturer might make things possible 😉 My pleasure! Yes, I have seen this remark too. My understanding is that the shipping costs inside Australia are included, but I think Clay will ship his devices outside also charging the additional costs. Matt DuckToller 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
matthias Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 11:54 AM, Iain said: Not sure what the consensus of opinion of FIIO DAC's, but they have just released the K3 for desktop use.: https://www.fiio.com/k3 I've been looking at it for the past couple of weeks, as it sports fs256 DSD and 32/384 PCM specs. If all works out I plan to purchase it. Did you buy it? If yes, what is your verdict? Thanks Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Ottoa62 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 For me, I have not bought anything since I returned the NANO 1. I am either going to get a Project S2 box Dac/ pre amp, or a Cambridge DAC magic plus. In no order, I may replace my pre amp which I sold yesterday ( SCHIIT SAGA ) with an integrated amp and buy the D50 and call it a day. I have a LIMM LK 140 I have been using I am going to list today. So it's dac/pre and now amp OR D50 and integrated. Link to comment
exdmd Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I prefer to buy gear that can be upgraded by use of replaceable boards so no planned obsolescence, and also know that Schiit will be coming out with their own USB implementation within a year that may well change the industry. View Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard's video at RMAF 2018 for details. The least expensive multibit DAC Schiit sells with an upgradeable USB board is the Bifrost Multibit at $599 which is what I would be buying now on a budget. With the availability of Qobuz now streaming 24/96 and 24/192 I believe MQA will fade away as folks who stream leave Tidal for Qobuz. I've already dropped my Tidal subscription and kept Qobuz. Link to comment
Miska Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, exdmd said: I prefer to buy gear that can be upgraded by use of replaceable boards so no planned obsolescence, and also know that Schiit will be coming out with their own USB implementation within a year that may well change the industry. Getting rid of USB altogether would be good first step to change the industry... 19 minutes ago, exdmd said: I believe MQA will fade away as folks who stream leave Tidal for Qobuz. I've already dropped my Tidal subscription and kept Qobuz. Only if MQA wouldn't be creeping into Qobuz too... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
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