Suggestions for a low-cost DAC?

[Jud]

5 hours ago, Shangri-La said:

 

Thanks, I will research on that iFi. What's the benefit of "doing upsampling with Audirvana+ or other player software to feed it"? And can you suggest some other options?

 

Think of a DAC as being comprised of 3 systems: Analog hardware; digital hardware; digital software.  A good chunk of the digital hardware and software are devoted to the internal upsampling done by the DAC.

 

If you move this internal upsampling task to software running on a computer you already own, you can get it done as well as or better than expensive DACs, for a very reasonable cost.  One reason for the iFi DAC is that it will accept as input very high sample rates, which help keep distortion and noise figures low.

 

You won't get the parts quality of an expensive DAC, but what do you want for $300?

 

By other options, do you mean software or hardware? Regarding hardware, I'm not familiar with another DAC in the price range that will accept sample rates as high (though that doesn't mean there aren't any).  Software, I happen to like Audirvana's price for performance. HQPlayer is available at greater expense.  XXHighEnd (Windows only) is a little complex to master and is really intended for R2R DACs that accept very high sample rates, which you probably won't find in your price range. JRiver I believe does upsampling, but I am not familiar with its capabilities in that area.

 

5 hours ago, Shangri-La said:

During my search for the DAC, I've looked at products beyong my budget just to see what I can get. The Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 uses the same ESS chip I think and doesnt measure that great. I could spend more if I find something that I like. But I havent. So why not get the least expensive one that measures well. 

 

Measurements were done with these DACs' internal upsampling, I believe.  Especially in this price range, upsampling done in software may produce better results.

[Shangri-La]

30 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Think of a DAC as being comprised of 3 systems: Analog hardware; digital hardware; digital software.  A good chunk of the digital hardware and software are devoted to the internal upsampling done by the DAC.

 

If you move this internal upsampling task to software running on a computer you already own, you can get it done as well as or better than expensive DACs, for a very reasonable cost.  One reason for the iFi DAC is that it will accept as input very high sample rates, which help keep distortion and noise figures low.

 

You won't get the parts quality of an expensive DAC, but what do you want for $300?

 

By other options, do you mean software or hardware? Regarding hardware, I'm not familiar with another DAC in the price range that will accept sample rates as high (though that doesn't mean there aren't any).  Software, I happen to like Audirvana's price for performance. HQPlayer is available at greater expense.  XXHighEnd (Windows only) is a little complex to master and is really intended for R2R DACs that accept very high sample rates, which you probably won't find in your price range. JRiver I believe does upsampling, but I am not familiar with its capabilities in that area.

 

 

Measurements were done with these DACs' internal upsampling, I believe.  Especially in this price range, upsampling done in software may produce better results.

Thank you for the explanation. So the idea is to offload some processing tasks (upsampling ) to software to reduce the DAC load and improve performance. Interesting. I'll read more on that. I do use Audirvana - let me see if I can find where to enable upsampling there.

 

Just found a very interesting DAC: the iFi xDSD at $399. It seems to perform well and have a lot of features. But one thing though: it only has a 3.5mm jack line output, instead of 2 RCA analog out which is the only input my amp will take. And that means I will have to use a 3.5mm to 2 RCA adapter. Would that compromise sound quality in any way? I've been looking online but haven't found any definite answer so far.

[Shangri-La]

Found this

https://audirvana.com/strong-increase-in-sound-quality-with-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling/ 

 

Nice!

[Taz777]

6 hours ago, Shangri-La said:

Found this

https://audirvana.com/strong-increase-in-sound-quality-with-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling/ 

 

Nice!

 

I would also compare the sound produced by Amarra Luxe. It also has upsampling but I don't use that feature. I tried both Audirvana and Amarra and bought Amarra simply because of its sound quality. I've had no technical issues with it in the last couple of months after a few software updates and it works very well on my Mac. Others may had technical issues with it so YMMV.

[Shangri-La]

10 hours ago, Taz777 said:

 

I would also compare the sound produced by Amarra Luxe. It also has upsampling but I don't use that feature. I tried both Audirvana and Amarra and bought Amarra simply because of its sound quality. I've had no technical issues with it in the last couple of months after a few software updates and it works very well on my Mac. Others may had technical issues with it so YMMV.

 

Tried upsampling quickly in Audirvana and didn't hear much difference. Switching from Airplay to UPNP did.

[Shangri-La]

Had a closer look at the iFi xDSD. It uses a 3.5mm RCA digital input (?!?), which is shared(?!?) with its mini toslink input(?!?). I guess its primary design was to be portable. No longer considered.

[Ralf11]

why does that bother you?

[Richard Dale]

17 hours ago, Shangri-La said:

Thank you for the explanation. So the idea is to offload some processing tasks (upsampling ) to software to reduce the DAC load and improve performance. Interesting. I'll read more on that. I do use Audirvana - let me see if I can find where to enable upsampling there.

 

Just found a very interesting DAC: the iFi xDSD at $399. It seems to perform well and have a lot of features. But one thing though: it only has a 3.5mm jack line output, instead of 2 RCA analog out which is the only input my amp will take. And that means I will have to use a 3.5mm to 2 RCA adapter. Would that compromise sound quality in any way? I've been looking online but haven't found any definite answer so far.

No it wouldn't in itself. But if you are into audiophile RCA interconnects it might limit your options in comparison. I think Audioquest might do a suitable 3.5mm to RCA cable in the right price range.

[Taz777]

28 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

 

Tried upsampling quickly in Audirvana and didn't hear much difference. Switching from Airplay to UPNP did.

 

As far as I am aware, Airplay doesn't do Hi-Res if that's important to you.

[Shangri-La]

13 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

why does that bother you?

 

- Digi 3.5mm to RCA cable is hard to find (maybe I should look harderr)

- Mini toslink to mini toslink cable is hard to find.

- These 2 inputs are shared in one physical connection means I cannot connect both at the same time which I need to.

[Shangri-La]

3 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

 

As far as I am aware, Airplay doesn't do Hi-Res if that's important to you.

 

Yeah I know uPNP looks better on specs but I was surprised I actually heard a difference. And I didnt even have hardware MQA decoder.

[Taz777]

19 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

 

- Digi 3.5mm to RCA cable is hard to find (maybe I should look harderr)

 

Would an Audioquest TOWER 3.5mm Jack To RCA Cable work? I have one, although it's used to supply an analogue output from my DAC to my active speakers (twin RCA --> stereo 3.5mm). I'm not sure what would make such a cable 'digital'.

[Shangri-La]

4 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

 

Would an Audioquest TOWER 3.5mm Jack To RCA Cable work? I have one, although it's used to supply an analogue output from my DAC to my active speakers (twin RCA --> stereo 3.5mm). I'm not sure what would make such a cable 'digital'.

Well if I'm not mistaken the AQ tower is one 3.5mm to 2 RCA connectors. But to use the digit 3.5mm input of the iFi, the other end needs to be one RCA connector, which is found on most digital device output.

[stuck limo]

I've used HRT DACs and can confirm they're very good sounding and not expensive. My buddy and I like them a lot. I used to have one in my system; he still utilizes his.

 

http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/

 

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=hrt+dac

[Shangri-La]

After more research, the Chord Mojo seems to be THE DAC TO BEAT around its price range. hmm..

[Panelhead]

  The site where the graph showing the “hump” in intermodulation distortion has been testing many 100.00 DACs. 

  They have a chart ranking DACs by S/N, IMD, and jitter. The more expensive are at the top. Several 100.00 - 300.00 DACs are in the top 10. Most are very recent releases. 

  I have not heard any of these units. But it is interesting some how 100.00 DACs  can outperform 1,000.00 DACs. 

  If I was looking for a cheap dac I would read the tests and try to see what features they offer. 

  One 80.00 unit does not come with a chassis. Uses ES9038 Pro chip too. Measures very well.

  There are so many brands and models it is confusing. 

  I thought my dac was an el cheapo. I could buy a sack of these new 100.00 DACs.

[Shangri-La]

2 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  The site where the graph showing the “hump” in intermodulation distortion has been testing many 100.00 DACs. 

  They have a chart ranking DACs by S/N, IMD, and jitter. The more expensive are at the top. Several 100.00 - 300.00 DACs are in the top 10. Most are very recent releases. 

  I have not heard any of these units. But it is interesting some how 100.00 DACs  can outperform 1,000.00 DACs. 

  If I was looking for a cheap dac I would read the tests and try to see what features they offer. 

  One 80.00 unit does not come with a chassis. Uses ES9038 Pro chip too. Measures very well.

  There are so many brands and models it is confusing. 

  I thought my dac was an el cheapo. I could buy a sack of these new 100.00 DACs.

 

Do you have a link to that chart? I've been reading a lot of their reviews and I do value their measurements. Thanks.

[Panelhead]

  There is ranking in the first few pages of each review. 

  I do not know the rules here. Might be violating them by mentioning name of site and posting links to it. 

[Jud]

32 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  There is ranking in the first few pages of each review. 

  I do not know the rules here. Might be violating them by mentioning name of site and posting links to it. 

 

I am not particularly familiar with the rules, but I've posted links to other sites and seen plenty of other folks do it with no objection whatever.

[Jud]

11 hours ago, Shangri-La said:

Had a closer look at the iFi xDSD. It uses a 3.5mm RCA digital input (?!?), which is shared(?!?) with its mini toslink input(?!?). I guess its primary design was to be portable. No longer considered.

 

I'm sure I also see a USB (male A, so takes a cable or adapter with female A connector) input. Same as the micro-iDSD.

 

By the way, the reason for external upsampling is to do this better than the DAC does internally, not really to make the DAC sound better by having it do less work.

 

But in any case, there are lots and lots of options (almost too many), so enjoy your research.   

[Shangri-La]

50 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I'm sure I also see a USB (male A, so takes a cable or adapter with female A connector) input. Same as the micro-iDSD.

 

By the way, the reason for external upsampling is to do this better than the DAC does internally, not really to make the DAC sound better by having it do less work.

 

But in any case, there are lots and lots of options (almost too many), so enjoy your research.   

 

Ahh... thank you. Yeah I enjoy the process of searching lol, of anything really. It's even more fun than finally getting it heheh..

[DuckToller]

Hi Shangri-La,
just saw your question, and thought I may be able to share some personal experience.
I own the V-90, Gieseler Klein, Dragonfly Red, Hifiberry+ Dac pro (to be used with RPi3b) , iFi iDSD BL and since December a Topping NX-4 DSD Dac & headphone amp
From my subjective sound experience, they rank like that:
1. iFi iDSD BL (2016) - 500-600 USD - up to DSD 512, IME best to use with Regen, ISO Regen or any iFi device which enhances the USB connection. Found his place aside the Klein in the main system
2. Gieseler Klein DAC (2015) - 500 USD -  up to 24/192 . 4 years ago a real value for money device with the AKM4490EQ Chip and a proper output stage.
3. Dragonfly Red (2016) - 200 USD - up to 24/96, easy to use, but imho a bit coloured, but very nice sounded device. Device broke after 2 years of heavy usage.
4. Topping NX-4 (2018 version) - 125 USD - up to DSD 512, nearly en par with DF Red, but very neutral, and much more functions, now part of the Desktop system. Used with Senn HD650.
5. Hifiberry Dac (2017) + pro 45 USD, good bass and separation, ok, but far away from the top 4.

6. V-90 (2014) - 300 USD, by far the DAC which has the least sq, even compared with the 45 Euro Hifiberry+ . I despised the listening fatigue it produces. Stays in the closet for wcs.
I bought everything in Euro, but converted 1:1 to USD.
IMHO, stay away from the V-90, rather save money with Dragonfly/Topping or go iFi/Chord. Being happy with the iFi, for 300 I'd look to the iDAC2 or the iONE Nano.
Cheers, Tom
 

[4est]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:02 PM, left channel said:

 

The choice of DAC chip does at least indicate the direction the designers wanted to go. As the late great Charles Hansen wrote here, the analog circuitry, power, and clocking all rank above the chip in his list of what influences the final sound of a DAC. But designers that select an AKM chip and follow the AKM "velvet sound" design guidelines are probably seeking that smooth warmth, within a range dependent on their preferences and skills.

Having owned a Modi and a ModiMultibit, I cannot say that I was impressed with either. I sent first back IIRC, and sold the latter here. I preferred an iFi nano to both of them. I am not sure what exactly the velvet guidelines are, but clocking and power supplies seem to be primary and intertwined. Changing out a DAC clock can make or break a DAC's signature despite whatever some might object to otherwise. The Schiit gear does not allow power supply upgrades beyond simply replacing the power transformers. They accept AC in, not DC.

[Taz777]

On 1/4/2019 at 9:57 PM, Shangri-La said:

 

That would be great.

 

After two hours of late night listening using my Topping D50 DAC, I honestly cannot notice this IMD bump represented by the graph. Not all of my music is recorded nicely, however I do have a few tracks that are exceptionally well recorded with a wide dynamic range, plenty of instruments, and quiet and loud parts.

 

Individual instruments were placed nicely in the soundstage and sounded like real musical instruments to me, to the extent that a bass drum was felt in my chest and a triangle felt like someone tapped my skull.

 

If anyone knows of tracks, preferably available on Tidal, that could illustrate this IMD hump in ESS DAC chips then please let me know. I'm keen to try to hear this issue before my AKM -based DAC arrives so that I can figure out exactly what to listen for.

 

Of course, it could be that my hearing is not good enough to hear this IMD.

[Shangri-La]

7 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Hi Shangri-La,
just saw your question, and thought I may be able to share some personal experience.
I own the V-90, Gieseler Klein, Dragonfly Red, Hifiberry+ Dac pro (to be used with RPi3b) , iFi iDSD BL and since December a Topping NX-4 DSD Dac & headphone amp
From my subjective sound experience, they rank like that:
1. iFi iDSD BL (2016) - 500-600 USD - up to DSD 512, IME best to use with Regen, ISO Regen or any iFi device which enhances the USB connection. Found his place aside the Klein in the main system
2. Gieseler Klein DAC (2015) - 500 USD -  up to 24/192 . 4 years ago a real value for money device with the AKM4490EQ Chip and a proper output stage.
3. Dragonfly Red (2016) - 200 USD - up to 24/96, easy to use, but imho a bit coloured, but very nice sounded device. Device broke after 2 years of heavy usage.
4. Topping NX-4 (2018 version) - 125 USD - up to DSD 512, nearly en par with DF Red, but very neutral, and much more functions, now part of the Desktop system. Used with Senn HD650.
5. Hifiberry Dac (2017) + pro 45 USD, good bass and separation, ok, but far away from the top 4.

6. V-90 (2014) - 300 USD, by far the DAC which has the least sq, even compared with the 45 Euro Hifiberry+ . I despised the listening fatigue it produces. Stays in the closet for wcs.
I bought everything in Euro, but converted 1:1 to USD.
IMHO, stay away from the V-90, rather save money with Dragonfly/Topping or go iFi/Chord. Being happy with the iFi, for 300 I'd look to the iDAC2 or the iONE Nano.
Cheers, Tom
 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience in details. It's an informative read. Really interesting to see the V90 was rated that low. It was measured well and very well reviewed by Stereophile. I'm guessing it could be that digital audio is developing quickly in recent years or the synergy with the device it drives.