Suggestions for a low-cost DAC?

[Miska]

On 1/6/2019 at 6:32 AM, Shangri-La said:

After more research, the Chord Mojo seems to be THE DAC TO BEAT around its price range. hmm..

 

I have one, but I gave up trying to use it for anything due to various problems...

 

I would say Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital, correctly configured and used beats it in all possible ways. And same actually goes for iFi micro iDSD BL too. For either of these, don't use the manufacturer default/recommended settings.

 

[Miska]

18 minutes ago, exdmd said:

I prefer to buy gear that can be upgraded by use of replaceable boards so no planned obsolescence, and also know that Schiit will be coming out with their own USB implementation within a year that may well change the industry.

 

Getting rid of USB altogether would be good first step to change the industry...

 

19 minutes ago, exdmd said:

I believe MQA will fade away as folks who stream leave Tidal for Qobuz. I've already dropped my Tidal subscription and kept Qobuz.

 

Only if MQA wouldn't be creeping into Qobuz too...

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

I really wouldn't ignore a DAC because of a chart or graph that someone has produced on the Internet. In most cases, nobody with normal hearing would ever hear anything that's shown as abnormal on a graph.

 

So people with normal hearing should ignore measured errors, but instead are supposed to hear sound differences that are not in the measurements? I find it more likely that the heard differences are due to those measured differences.

 

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

This whole modern digital HiFi thing reminds me of people on car forums asking which colour car or which trim/engine option they should buy and allowing others to spend their money for them. A test drive of several and buying the one that puts the widest grin on my face has always been my approach!

 

For car I look for engine option that is known to be software limited version of most expensive one. Then I get ECU remap for the engine to make it exceed the most expensive model at much lower price!  That puts grin on my face!

 

1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

I used that same approach with my latest HiFi systems, returning several DACs, speakers and cables in the process as I wasn't happy with the sound.

 

My method is to first filter out under performing gear using measurements and then from the small remaining set pick the ones that sound best. For cables I look at the parameters that I know to matter (capacitance for analog interconnects and inductance for speaker cables). This way I've been getting very nice results!

 

[Miska]

11 hours ago, Taz777 said:

Thus, whilst you can gain MQA decoding with many DACs, if the analogue conversion isn't great then you may as well listen via a decent non-MQA DAC as it'll sound better.

 

By doing MQA decoding in the player and letting DAC have proper digital filters instead poor MQA ones is also better...

 

You don't really gain anything by moving MQA decoding to the DAC side, instead it has some negative impact.

 

[Miska]

14 hours ago, Veri said:

Never had problems with my iDSD BL micro. Not one

 

I've had enough problems with the firmware to give up trying to use it as my desktop DAC. In short term use you don't encounter it so much. But letting it run 24/7 for some weeks...

 

Sometimes the firmware just goes nuts and stops responding to commands from USB. And it has for example a bug that after plugging in and starting up, if you start with 705.6/768k PCM right away it ends up playing it wrong. You need to first play something at lower rate or DSD and then switch to 705.6/768k and then it'll play correctly.

 

And I cannot switch to newer firmware than 5.20 because they ruined the functionality when they added MQA since they needed to remove bunch of other stuff from XMOS firmware to make space for the MQA. At one point they half-promised to make a non-MQA update for it, but so far nothing...

 

[Miska]

On 2/23/2019 at 11:06 PM, jabbr said:

Not entirely fair to compare the $400 S2 to a $1300 RME. At that level I'd consider the new Holo Spring 2. It claims DSD1024 and focus on analog electronics (yep uses ESS). The Topping DX7s was supposed to be my experiment to see if I can hear an ESS SQ but I'm not going to blame ESS   So for that reason Pro-ject

 

What? Holo Spring is a discrete DAC and doesn't use any COTS DAC chip (ESS or anything else)...

 

[Miska]

18 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

However, the signal presented on its coax digital out is only the first unfold - and this is what I'm using as the input to my non-MQA Topping D50.

 

So it looks like I cannot present an MQA decoded digital signal on the digital out of the player to feed into another DAC.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood something - if I could get a full MQA decoded 24/192 PCM stream out of my Node 2i and into the Topping D50 then I'd be a very happy man! Currently I can only get up to 24/96 (which isn't bad by the way, it sounds fantastic, but isn't the full deal).

 

The thing is - there is nothing more to unfold! The rest, what they call "rendering" is upsampling using their filters, exact filter for that is selected based on data in the MQA stream. But your DAC's filters are likely better than those ones.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

I think >$1000 offtopic for a “low cost DAC” thread, but I’d love to hear Holo Spring 2 next to T+A (DSD1024 version) ie compare mostly analog electronics for discrete DSD DACs.

 

Me too!

 

By the way, in that expensive category, I've heard the Nagra Classic/HD DAC at DSD128 and it sounded pretty amazing. Cannot wait to hear the HD DAC X at DSD256 (if such possibility comes).

 

[Miska]

By the way, are you both using S2D same way? At least looks like it. I think it sounds notably cleaner when volume is set to 0 dB and controlled from the headphone amp. The built-in headphone amp is not bad either, but the ESS volume control sort of lets it down to some extent.

 

And you both have "Distortion compensation" turned on?

[Miska]

Yeah, 705.6/768k PCM and DSD512 support is gone with the MQA. And so is S/PDIF output functionality.

 

Not good for people who wish to use the device with HQPlayer. And I occasionally also use the S/PDIF output feature, especially on Nano iDSD which is not so great as a DAC.

 

Unfortunately for example the corresponding product pages don't mention this...

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Shangri-La said:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2019-edition-digital-processors 

 

The Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital is just listed as Stereophile's Class A DAC. Quite an achievement for a $400 DAC!

 

It is a really good device and value for the money!

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

I call for a DAC-off vs. the RME and Yggy

 

RME wins before the start-line.

 

[Miska]

My unit is pretty early one. Maybe Pro-Ject has been trying different cost savings around the design over time, and not sure how consistent the QA has been. So with more expensive devices one would expect to get more consistent quality. Original design itself is very good though.

 

Personally, I have generic dislike for micro-USB connectors after lot of experience from different devices. Problems are due to various mechanical design challenges. If you have a device with such, just avoid any physical stress to the connector. Doesn't affect electrical performance, but the mechanical durability is not so great.

 

[Miska]

10 hours ago, Jud said:

As of today, awaiting shipment of a Pro-Ject S2.  @Miska, if you would be kind enough: I've read in a couple of places where you mention configuring the DAC properly.  There's not using the DAC's own filters and feeding it DSD512.  I've seen distortion compensation mentioned, but wasn't sure if that applies if the DAC's filters aren't used.  Anything else?

 

The DAC has some pre-configured "Audio Quality" profiles, but those are wrong. Instead it needs to be manually configured, so "Audio Quality" setting ends up being "User". Set "Distortion Compensation" to "Enabled". And I recommend selecting "Fast Rolloff" filter, point being to select one of the ESS' built-in filters.

 

[Miska]

57 minutes ago, Jud said:

I'm supposing if "Fast Rolloff" is selected and DSD512 is received, there's no internal SRC applied?

 

Yes, it affects only lower PCM input rates. 705.6/768k PCM inputs also bypass those. Sabre has separate three DSD noise filter options, but this S2D doesn't expose those, so it just has one selected always. Not sure which one.