Jud Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/2/2019 at 3:59 PM, Shangri-La said: This new setup won't be used for critical listening, for which I have a main setup. Yeah, under $300. For $300 I can get the V-90 DAC, which although being 5-year old, will still be more than good enough for the new setup I believe. USB for computer, coaxial for Allo DigiOne Signature stream. And maybe Toslink for my Macbook pro. As one alternative at your price point, though by far not the only one, you might look for a used iFi micro-iDSD DAC on eBay, and think about doing upsampling with Audirvana+ or other player software to feed it. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted January 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Shangri-La said: Thanks, I will research on that iFi. What's the benefit of "doing upsampling with Audirvana+ or other player software to feed it"? And can you suggest some other options? Think of a DAC as being comprised of 3 systems: Analog hardware; digital hardware; digital software. A good chunk of the digital hardware and software are devoted to the internal upsampling done by the DAC. If you move this internal upsampling task to software running on a computer you already own, you can get it done as well as or better than expensive DACs, for a very reasonable cost. One reason for the iFi DAC is that it will accept as input very high sample rates, which help keep distortion and noise figures low. You won't get the parts quality of an expensive DAC, but what do you want for $300? By other options, do you mean software or hardware? Regarding hardware, I'm not familiar with another DAC in the price range that will accept sample rates as high (though that doesn't mean there aren't any). Software, I happen to like Audirvana's price for performance. HQPlayer is available at greater expense. XXHighEnd (Windows only) is a little complex to master and is really intended for R2R DACs that accept very high sample rates, which you probably won't find in your price range. JRiver I believe does upsampling, but I am not familiar with its capabilities in that area. 5 hours ago, Shangri-La said: During my search for the DAC, I've looked at products beyong my budget just to see what I can get. The Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 uses the same ESS chip I think and doesnt measure that great. I could spend more if I find something that I like. But I havent. So why not get the least expensive one that measures well. Measurements were done with these DACs' internal upsampling, I believe. Especially in this price range, upsampling done in software may produce better results. Da Horsey, Ajax and Shangri-La 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, Panelhead said: There is ranking in the first few pages of each review. I do not know the rules here. Might be violating them by mentioning name of site and posting links to it. I am not particularly familiar with the rules, but I've posted links to other sites and seen plenty of other folks do it with no objection whatever. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 11 hours ago, Shangri-La said: Had a closer look at the iFi xDSD. It uses a 3.5mm RCA digital input (?!?), which is shared(?!?) with its mini toslink input(?!?). I guess its primary design was to be portable. No longer considered. I'm sure I also see a USB (male A, so takes a cable or adapter with female A connector) input. Same as the micro-iDSD. By the way, the reason for external upsampling is to do this better than the DAC does internally, not really to make the DAC sound better by having it do less work. But in any case, there are lots and lots of options (almost too many), so enjoy your research. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Regarding what I'd posted about upsampling and lower noise, see the measurements here: 4est 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 4 hours ago, jabbr said: I can say that the Pro-Ject S2D sounds far better than any of the little wheat thin like DACs that I’ve heard... and I have a few that are laying around my desk and car etc but never call me back to listen. As opposed to the iFi Micro, the Pro-Ject seems to be sensitive to noise on the USB input, in that the UpTone ISO Regen actually makes a big difference (as opposed to the iFi Micro for which it didn’t). The Pro-Ject is far less annoying than the iFi which has too many knobs & switches and options that I can’t keep straight. I don't know if it was what Miska was referring to when he mentioned aggravations with the iFi firmware, but for me there are very often times when I have to unplug and replug power to ISO Regen or micro-Rendu to get the iFi to show up as NAA or UPnP/DLNA endpoint. If it is the DAC, I'd certainly be happier with one that reliably connected for streaming. (Once it is connected, there's no trouble maintaining that, but it's a PITA having to play with it to get it to show up in the first place.) One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Paul R said: None of those problems here with me, either with the original iDSD NaNO, or with an iDSD Micro BL. I leave them on USB power all the time though. You should just have to turn it on one time, with it connected to USB. Then it will work like, forever? The battery will never die, etc. Unless of course, you guys are letting the music player machine go to sleep. If you do that, the iFi will switch to battery power and die off after 10 or so hours. So the answer is, just don't do *that*. Leave the music machine powered on 24x7. It will extend the computer's life span anyway. -Paul Ah ah ah, pay attention - what is directly connected to the DAC is the ISO Regen, which is indeed always on (and from which the DAC takes its power), and what is connected behind that is the microRendu, also always on. I'm streaming to the mR in the living room from my desktop machine in the office, and no, I am not leaving the desktop running 24/7. So in essence I've got the situation you describe, Paul, with the DAC always connected to power (though not always charging, as the firmware stops the charging circuit when the battery is sufficiently charged). But it still frequently drops off the radar of Audirvana+ (UPnP/DLNA) and HQP (NAA). (I also like XXHighEnd very much, but @PeterSt doesn't recommend or AFAIK configure the software for situations where the computer running XXHE is located remotely from a DAC connected to a microRendu.) One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 1 hour ago, jabbr said: In my case I'm using ARM devices for which I often have to custom compile a linux kernel, so yeah who knows? At some point I just want to plug it in and have it work and not worry about these details. ... I'm of the philosophy that I probably put up with more glitchiness than 99% of people out there (other than the other Phasure customers 😂 -- sorry not sorry @PeterSt) and so there's a lot to be said for simple plug and play -- the S2D wins big in this category I haven't felt that XXHE is glitchy. With all its various controls for things most people aren't very familiar with, it can feel a little daunting. Somewhat counterintuitively, the insanely detailed and thorough context-sensitive help (right-click or hover over the various controls) can also leave an intimidating first impression. But I've always found that once I understood it, everything worked as it should. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 9 hours ago, Paul R said: I know that ain't what you want to hear. Hi Paul - Nothing to do with what I want to hear; I'm happy it works in your situation. Positioning the micro-iDSD as a semi-portable DAC with a battery, but one that is usually connected to power, creates the necessity for firmware that cuts off the power when the battery is sufficiently charged. This adds complexity and allows the possibility of the buggy operation a number of us have seen. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 As of today, awaiting shipment of a Pro-Ject S2. @Miska, if you would be kind enough: I've read in a couple of places where you mention configuring the DAC properly. There's not using the DAC's own filters and feeding it DSD512. I've seen distortion compensation mentioned, but wasn't sure if that applies if the DAC's filters aren't used. Anything else? I'll be trying it with a battery pack (just a 24,000mAh phone charging battery, 5V/2.1A) and the LPS-1 for power. Running it into my Spectral DMC-12 and controlling volume from there, so will leave the S2's volume control all the way up. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Paul R said: Dropping on and off the net is a protocol issue with the software driving the DAC, not an issue within the DAC itself. My first thought too, until I read both Miska and jabbr mentioning frustrations with the iFi firmware specifically. When the Pro-Ject arrives, I guess we'll see. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Paul R said: I am pretty sure those frustrations are the same as mine - mostly dealing with losing DSD512 in a trade off for MQA processing Paul, jabbr already said in this thread his frustrations mirrored mine, and do you really think Miska would update firmware unaware of the contents of the update? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Miska said: The DAC has some pre-configured "Audio Quality" profiles, but those are wrong. Instead it needs to be manually configured, so "Audio Quality" setting ends up being "User". Set "Distortion Compensation" to "Enabled". And I recommend selecting "Fast Rolloff" filter, point being to select one of the ESS' built-in filters. I'm supposing if "Fast Rolloff" is selected and DSD512 is received, there's no internal SRC applied? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Paul R said: I know your frustrated, but I am not challenging you. I just think the iFi may not be a good choice for you because of the way you want to use it. Yep. 7 hours ago, Paul R said: Hell, *I* updated the firmware here without realizing it was going to zap some functionality I wanted, and I am certifiably paranoid about firmware updates breaking things. Nobody is perfect. And, I admit, iFi was on my list of "I don't need to be too paranoid about these people...". Past tense. My list is zero organizations long. 😄 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted April 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2019 Had the Pro-Ject for a couple of days now, and no dropped connections yet. But company is coming tomorrow, and you know that's the acid test - it's always when you have people over that things go wrong! Really enjoying the sound, too. Have Paolo Pandolfo's "Improvisando" playing, and it's just luxurious. christopher3393 and jabbr 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said: If acid is right, everything in this world will sound just perfect. Yeah, but the next day I'll still have this nice DAC. 😉 jabbr 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 6 hours ago, franz159 said: I'm surprised this has not been mentioned yet in this thread, where it definitely belongs! My strong recommendation for a low-cost DAC but very high quality for the cost would be the 99$ Khadas Tone Board https://www.khadas.com/tone https://www.khadas.com/tone-specs It measures as DACs costing multiple time its cost, as you can see here. The sound is clear, detailed and airy, with an unbelievable sense of rhythm. It decodes all PCM resolutions up to 384 Khz and DSD up to DSD256, no MQA What else is needed with this board, if anything, besides what the $99 pays for? For me that wasn't clear from the website. Also it's described as a "development" board, so that's something else that made me think more boards or connectors might be necessary. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 By the way, the Pro-Ject passed the "having company over" test with flying colors. In fact we gave it quite a test with kind of a game that a friend/neighbor came up with. It requires a local music collection and/or a streaming service, controlled remotely, preferably with a tablet. You pass the tablet around, and everyone there takes turns picking songs. Great fun. (In my case it was the Audirvana+ Remote on an iPad with my local collection and Qobuz.) Switching between tracks, sometimes after another track had already started, the Pro-Ject was flawless. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 That looks like a great travel system! Is the computer feeding the DAC a Pi or similar? And that's a handsome-looking case for not a lot of money. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 18 hours ago, jabbr said: The pro-ject s2d is my recommendation at this price point. if you want to bump up a couple bills the the iFi iDSD micro BL For my usage (feeding DSD512 to the DAC) I prefer the Pro-Ject to the silver (original) micro iDSD, both of which I own. I also prefer the BL to the silver model, but haven’t heard it enough to know whether I like the BL or Pro-Ject better. Anyone happen to know what components the BL and Pro-Ject use in their final analog filters and outputs? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
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