Suggestions for a low-cost DAC?

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1 hour ago, Shangri-La said:

PPS - what about the Schiit Modi 3? It measures very well and gets a great review at audio science review. 

 

I love the Modi series so much, I own four! One Modi 2U and three Modi 3 units, all in regular use, one paired with a Magni headphone amp of course. Modi DACs are good representatives of the AKM "velvet sound", and at $99 I feel the 3 is the best value around. I own another AKM-based DAC as well, the midrange NuPrime DAC-9, plus speaker amps that offer a warm forgiving sound.

 

I also own the ESS-based Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 and the matching Amp Box S2. They offer a very crisp, neutral, resolving sound that does not appeal to me, but the little S2 has a lot of features and is very popular, and like the previous poster I am a big fan of the designer John Westlake even if we seem to prefer a different sound signature.

The influence of a DAC is much more subtle than an amp, but if any of this sound signature discussion is interesting to you, I suggest paying careful attention to this aspect in owner reviews.

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7 hours ago, Taz777 said:

 

I'm very interested in this 'velvety sound'. My Topping D50 has ES9038Q2M2 DACs that produce a beautifully clear and detailed sound and works great with my speaker-based system. For my headphones system, as it's a bedside listening system, I'd prefer a warmer sound - closer to a tube sound.

 

Is it the case that almost any AKM based DAC would produce this velvety sound?

 

The choice of DAC chip does at least indicate the direction the designers wanted to go. As the late great Charles Hansen wrote here, the analog circuitry, power, and clocking all rank above the chip in his list of what influences the final sound of a DAC. But designers that select an AKM chip and follow the AKM "velvet sound" design guidelines are probably seeking that smooth warmth, within a range dependent on their preferences and skills.

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55 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

 

Yeah the D50 is looking really nice. Just that "hump" bothers me a bit. Not sure how that translates to realworld listening.. 

 

I'm told you'll often see/hear that IMD hump from budget ESS-based DACs. Not so in comparable AKM DACs.

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Go for it, @Shangri-La! Modi and call it a day.

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4 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

Is the Modi 3 the only 'reasonably priced' desktop DAC using the newest AKM chip? I'm keen to listen to a DAC with a different chip compared to the Topping D50 to see if it produces a nicer sound.

I haven't heard this one, but how about the Topping DX3 Pro?

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12 hours ago, Ottoa62 said:

Thank you good to know. Maybe the upgradeable Bitfrost could be the way to go.

 DAC or DAC/pre amp that is the question. Back to the DAC magic. 349.00. Hard to beat.

 

The DACs you're considering are designed around different chips, resulting in different sound signatures. Do you know what you prefer? Amps usually have a larger impact on the sound than DACs, with the influence of a DAC sometimes so subtle it takes a couple weeks of listening to fully describe, but I can say that S2D has a crisp neutral resolving sound signature even when used only as a DAC.

 

I much prefer the AKM-based "Velvet Sound". Although I haven't heard all the DACs you've mentioned, based on reviews I've read I suspect the basic Bifrost has an AKM sound similar to my Modi 2U, while the Bifrost multibit model is a bit more resolving in the treble but still warmer than the S2D. The DAC Magic is based on a Wolfson chip. I liked the Wolfson sound well enough in an old Squeezebox I have, but when I upgraded that with an external Modi 3 heard an improvement immediately (to my ears). As for my S2D, I only use it for testing at this point as I don't find the ESS-based neutral resolving sound a pleasure at all, but others here on this thread will say the exact opposite. 

If your ears prefer one over the other, this aspect of DAC design will be important to you, and you'll have a lot of fun comparing. My spouse does not hear these differences at all though. Everyone's ears and brains are different. That's what makes people so interesting, and why there are so many different DACs out there.

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@Ottoa62 glad that helped! I haven't heard the DX3 Pro. My favorite DACs like the so far are designed around the 4490 (so yes you should would consider Modi 3; the USB is not upgradeable but I use USB signal cleaners instead), but the DX3 Pro is likely similar as the circuit around its 4493 chips probably follows AKM design guidelines. On that topic, I'll leave you with my favorite post from the late great Charles Hansen: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/35106-how-does-a-perfect-dac-analog-signal-look-different-than-a-cheap-dac/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-713189

 

Amps are a whole 'nother thread, but for music I have gravitated towards solid-state amps that offer a warm forgiving tube-like flavor, like the NuPrime STA-9 through my Magni 2U preamp/head amp, and for a mix of music and home theater the clearer and stronger but still warm enough NuPrime MCH-K38 through a very transparent Anthem preamp. The NuPrime folks have posted an interesting chart of their amps, a very rare thing for a manufacture to offer, useful for the criteria used as much as for evaluating their products: https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/amp-comparison/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

Next in the chain are headphones and speakers. Don't get me started. 🙂

 

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(Wow the beginning of that last post shows what I hope is a rare failure to proofread... too late to change it now.)

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13 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

Nice follow up...if I had 1300.00. I would probably buy the Rogue Sphnix...

2. Have you read or heard anything on CLASD D amplifiers?  Strong reviews from clients.   I have a Linn lk140 at the moment..pretty musical amp. I just sold a Schiit Saga pre amp..and M.F. V90 DAC I'm looking at a DAC pre amp. Or DAC   and pre amp. Or selling Linn for an integrated amp.  I had and sold an NAD 326bee..I may want to get another one..I did enjoy that piece and it sounded very good. 2nd choice is Yamaha SL 501. 

 

I'm all about the follow up. 🙂 For all these things, sometimes it's best to try the cheaper options first to figure out what you like.

We should probably start a new thread on amps, but: I'm sure the Linn sounds great. There are many Linn fans over on pinkfishmedia.net if you'd like to discuss new options with fellow owners. Schiit focuses on Class A amps, though their new Aegir small amp will be some kind of hybrid Class A. NuPrime makes hybrid Class D amps and they have a lot to say about that here: https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/amp-design/?v=7516fd43adaa I like the sound of their warm amps, but that's not all there is to it and for example I hated the neutral resolving STA-6. The main reason I brought them up is that the chart I linked to above is so useful for evaluating all amps.

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@Ralf11 do you mean this thread?
 

 

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34 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

wanna date that pic I posted?  She's Only B&W tho...

 

Well, I am a fan of smart sassy left channel-lovin' women!
 

 

Do you want to date my avatar? Click here.

 

 

:::

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26 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

Any suggestions?

 

Well, if you prefer matching design, the Pro-Ject Accu Box S2 or Accubox S2 USB (battery banks) or Power Box S2 (linear PSU): https://www.project-audio.com/en/category/hifi-electronics/s2-line/power-s2-line/   I believe the designer of the S2D had a hand in, or at least had input into the development of, those three products. There are many other fine products with the same features available from China and elsewhere too though of course.

 

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33 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

Perhaps someone on here who actually owns an S2D can comment?

 

The manual does not provide enough information.

The PSU included with the S2D is intended for use with the coax and optical inputs. When connected via USB, power is drawn from the USB source and in that case the use of the included PSU is not recommended.

After the S2D was released, the designer — John Westlake — posted additional information in an online forum: when connected via USB, if you connect an external PSU the S2D will automatically switch to the PSU for power, but he does not recommend using the included switching PSU then. He recommends only a linear PSU of the types I linked to above from Pro-Ject or other manufacturers.

 

In general, most of us have found that any external PSU will improve the sound quality over using only USB power. Although John is adamant that we should not use switching PSUs of any kind, I've seen a report that the iFi iPower does offer improvement even though it is filtered but not linear. However, most of us did go with linear PSUs. I use a cheap linear "wall-wart".

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1 hour ago, Taz777 said:

 

@left channel Okay, so it looks like the device will auto-switch power inputs. Perhaps the manual is out of synch? I noticed that the manual is dated 2017.

 

In 2017 we managed to convince Pro-Ject Support to at least update it to what you have there. Perhaps they decided not to also recommend purchase of a different PSU for USB because (a) they didn't have the Accu Box or Power Box yet, (b) they didn't want to receive complaints from customers, as after all the S2D does work when powered only by USB, or (c) they just didn't fully understand the issue.

Since then I for one have stopped trying to help them, the designer is no longer associated with Pro-Ject, and I don't expect we'll see many more changes although I do hope to see at least one more firmware update.

 

55 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

I'll contact Support and confirm it will auto switch. Why would they make their own battery supply if it did not?

 

You have the designer's own declaration (on pinkfishmedia.net) that it does auto switch. At the time the manual came out, they had not yet announced the Accu Box or Power Box products. The Pro-Ject website tries to divert support questions to local dealers, who usually know less than you do at this point. And last time I checked, their main Support office was understaffed, overwhelmed, and not technical.

 

55 minutes ago, Ottoa62 said:

I could also try a cell phone charger to see what that does.

 

A cell phone charger would be no better than the included PSU. But a cell phone battery bank would meet the designer's recommendation, as would any linear PSU that provides 5V and 1A (or at least 0.5 A as I recall). 

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3 minutes ago, Shangri-La said:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2019-edition-digital-processors 

 

The Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital is just listed as Stereophile's Class A DAC. Quite an achievement for a $400 DAC!

 

Indeed. This is mostly based on their measurements, published with this month's review of the S2D. The review itself is rather basic.

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1 hour ago, mrmb said:

Re. the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2A :  Out of a small number of Amazon Verified Purchaser Reviews, several cite build quality issues.  Especially those involving either power port's/USB port's "breaking"/"falling-off".  I'm always wary about purchase reviews especially on Amazon.  But there appears to be far too many of a limited sample, "verified" purchasers with the same issue.  So, at the very least before purchasing, I would want to delve into this issue more to confirm that either the reviews on Amazon are abnormal, or Project has fixed the problem. 

 

There have indeed been hardware and firmware issues galore, but it's still a very ambitious design for its price-point, and most owners seem very happy with it. There's a long thread on the product here, and more good info on head-fi, pinkfishmedia, and elsewhere.
 

 

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9 minutes ago, mrmb said:

Thanks for the review link.

 

However, Sterophile's review left me wondering.  Wondering how the contents of the review turned the Project into a class "A" rating?  Wondering if the Project actually bettered the AQ DragonFly Red, or whether overall they were equal with perhaps the AQ bettering the Project? 

 

The review revolved around using the Project with headphones.  While speakers seemed to be used, I found no listening comments specific to their use.   

 

I don't doubt that the Project at its price point is a superb DAC.  I just don't know how the review I read, translates into a Class A rating, unless of course the value-to-performance ratio skewed it in that direction?  

 

At any rate, the devil is always in the details and for me and for my 2-cents, Stereophile's review goes wanting.  

   

 

I found the main review rather incomplete and uninformed, but I think the Class A rating is based entirely on John Atkinson's measurements which probably far outclass the DragonFly as well as many higher-priced competitors. For the price those results are outstanding, but in other respects you still get what you pay for. You'll find a very long thread for the Pro-Ject S2D here on AS.

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1 hour ago, Shangri-La said:

I hope/believe that stereophile review and rating are based mainly on listening test, like with their other reviews. Measurement is just to reassure the basics. I also believe the price is not taken into consideration when giving it a Class A, which is what I regard their rating pretty highly - how do products compare to each other when prices are ignored.

 

I would like to believe that too, but the review is incomplete, consisting of only headphone listening by a guy who says "I don't often listen to headphones", and it is not entirely positive either: he reports that in his comparisons other products (the DragonFly and the Tascam) sounded better to him. His conclusion is certainly similar to that of most of us here, in that it's an ambitious little unit offering an amazing number of features and performing well for its size, but the rating has got to be based on the measurements by John Atkinson, who commented that this "tiny, inexpensive box offers almost state-of-the-art measured digital performance".