Objectivists/Subjectivists

[marce]

2 hours ago, lasker98 said:

See last response to you. I believe there's enough of a possibility that the measurements were flawed, incomplete or biased that they're pretty much irrelevant to me in any kind of purchasing decision.

I'm listening to music, not running a lab.

Yet it's through those measurements and development over the years that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

[PeterSt]

Just now, PeterSt said:

Solves all !

 

Unless, of course, we know in advance it is MQA'd. Then it is clearly audible.

[PeterSt]

Just now, marce said:

Yet it's through those measurements and development over the years that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

 

Show me please.

I'm only asking because I can't.

 

And don't give me the "because there is no audible difference", please.

 

Repeat: music reproduction keeps on improving over here, but not because by measurement. Indirectly yes, but means of using better (by some instance) measured components we now use. So in the end we talk about the same. But not that we agree (I think).

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, marce said:

that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

 

Let me put it differently ... where are the improved audio measurement analysers since 10 years or so ?

Replay is at an astonishing 32/786 at unmeasurable THD etc. levels.

 

Eh, what did I say ? 

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

PS: Null tests ending at whatever -dB don't count because the whatever -dB is subjective to the tester to begin with. Prejudiced (wherever that came from).

-> Oh, I know, we can't perceive a -120dB signal. Bwehhhhhh. Solves all !

 

But nothing.

 

OK, Peter, demonstrate that you can hear a -120dB signal at normal audio playback levels and I'll buy a Lush^2 cable.

[PeterSt]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

OK, Peter, demonstrate that you can hear a -120dB signal

 

See ?

[pkane2001]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

See ?

 

So no sale?

 

[esldude]

29 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Dennis, I don't get it. So long term listening unveils even more difference ?

 

I am saying this because it is the only thing which works for me. Like 5 days (unless it fails right away or at the same day).

 

Quick switching never can work because what's heard in one will be heard forever in the other.

 

OK, I guess this is off topic. But my first "normal" response to an evenly normal post. I hope.

 

In my testing for small difference, 10 seconds or less works better.  So no long term listening didn't result in discernment being better. And yes quick switching can and does work.

 

And this is in agreement with formal testing of perception. After you exceed echoic memory the direct perception is no longer available to you. Instead you are getting something like an mp3 of the sound memory.  Only one susceptible to being influenced by other non perceptual factors.

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

So no sale?

 

No sale. But I have an other proposition.

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

No sale. But I have an other proposition.

 

Be nice, now! I'm listening.

[RickyV]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Be nice, now! I'm listening.

?

[fas42]

It's quite easy to organise a real world test for the qualities need; piano or audio rig behind a curtain, can an idle person, or one curious to understand what matters, trivially pick the real from the fake; or be basically guessing - 120dB down stuff is meaningless; it's "show off skill" territory.

[PeterSt]

Just read that briefly, please.

 

Dirk is my sheer reference for the only single person returning a Lush^2 because it id not work out. Wait, it sounded worse in his system. Ha, victory still, because it apparently made a difference. Expectation bias ? (I can easily unveil this because Dirk did so himself in the Lush^2 thread).

No. Dirk insisted to exchange for a new one, because he could measure an anomaly (multi meter, resistant-wise). I refused but instead I just sent Dirk a new one so he could compare infinitely with my hint it wouldn't make a different SQ wise. Upside down placebo.

Results ? tadaaa .... (drum roll)

Dirk now returned both for the price of one.

 

What am I saying ?

 

Paul, if you are sent one for free and if you dare to hear no difference with any random setting (and otherwise a few prescribed ones) then you are so down the drain of credit ... unbelievable. And this is the point: you would be the first one of objectivists (count me out) taking up that glove. But for free eh ...

So now you can choose to reject, pick it up and hear the clear differences all over the place putting YOU up to the task of proof in measurement (pick your tripod machines) or ... be the first one anywhere not to be able to hear.

Whoa, I most certainly would not pick the latter. I'd better also not reject. Thus ... have fun.

Address please plus required cable length (PM allowed).

 

PS: Someone help me out, please. What would be better ... keep it for free when Paul likes it for the better, or keep it only when it is normally paid for. I vote for the former. But a storm of protest because of illegal influence may roll over ...

 

And Paul, I have no mean intentions. If I may say ... you could be the only one rightfully question what is to be questioned (of that other camp I regard myself to be in as well ).

[christopher3393]

5 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Right!  So why do we have a call, mostly by "subjectivists", for moderation and enforced civility?

 

The moderator himself states that he regrets not being able to keep up with the context of threads and thinks that adding another human being who is like-minded in his/her approach to moderation would a) make life a little easier for him and b) better support the moderation that he has chosen all along. You'll find he has already stated this in the thread he started. Is additional practical on-the-ground support for a policy of moderation that has been in place for years bending to "subjectivist"  pressure and equivalent to implementing "enforced civility" ? IMO, this is an unsupportable false equivalency. To all members: Is Chris C. succumbing to pressure to create a specious "enforced civility"? 

 

Sorry for the OT, lasker98.

[sandyk]

40 minutes ago, marce said:

Yet it's through those measurements and development over the years that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

 

Yes.

We have a resurgence in Vinyl, a resurgence in Vacuum tubes with their normally higher distortion products, including a surfeit of the euphonic even order distortion products , large numbers of Class D amplifiers with overall, far worse  measurements than the best of Solid State, such as the inefficient Class A, and now MQA !

[Jud]

51 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Dennis, I don't get it. So long term listening unveils even more difference ?

 

I am saying this because it is the only thing which works for me. Like 5 days (unless it fails right away or at the same day).

 

Quick switching never can work because what's heard in one will be heard forever in the other.

 

OK, I guess this is off topic. But my first "normal" response to an evenly normal post. I hope.

 

 

22 minutes ago, esldude said:

In my testing for small difference, 10 seconds or less works better.  So no long term listening didn't result in discernment being better. And yes quick switching can and does work.

 

And this is in agreement with formal testing of perception. After you exceed echoic memory the direct perception is no longer available to you. Instead you are getting something like an mp3 of the sound memory.  Only one susceptible to being influenced by other non perceptual factors.

 

You can both be correct if @PeterSt is matching a pattern from long experience and @esldude is doing an immediate quick comparison.

 

Something I have been interested in for a long time is to what degree subtleties, perhaps the differences between the sounds of two amps, can be perceived in a rapid switching comparison.  That of course was the reason for my "two guitars" test, in which participants were asked which of two different acoustic guitars was playing in which channel of a musical piece.

[PeterSt]

26 minutes ago, esldude said:

After you exceed echoic memory the direct perception is no longer available to you.

 

I understand. But what about the annoyance factor ? I mean, if you really are put up the task of surviving with the worst "config" (haha) ever, you'd know, would you ? that is my 5 days (or even linger these days) story.

 

Or maybe you recall  @Jud's test. I was the only one (or the best of it) that could dig out whatever it was guitar comparisons (I really forgot). One thing I will not forget: it was under a cookers hoover (hood) of more than 70dB of noise, the test music playing at ~85dB 6 meters further in the room. Key: unconsciousness. And I did that on purpose.

There have been more of these contests (Julf's Redbook vs Hires) ... I always "win" them.

How ?

Don't pay attention but observe annoyance. 

This actually can't be done with short term A-B. 5 days ? easily.

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

That of course was the reason for my "two guitars" test

 

Wow. I hope people can see that I can't have responded to this within 2 minutes of time. So this cross posted and is really what I was referring to.

But Jud too ...

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Just read that briefly, please.

 

Dirk is my sheer reference for the only single person returning a Lush^2 because it id not work out. Wait, it sounded worse in his system. Ha, victory still, because it apparently made a difference. Expectation bias ? (I can easily unveil this because Dirk did so himself in the Lush^2 thread).

No. Dirk insisted to exchange for a new one, because he could measure an anomaly (multi meter, resistant-wise). I refused but instead I just sent Dirk a new one so he could compare infinitely with my hint it wouldn't make a different SQ wise. Upside down placebo.

Results ? tadaaa .... (drum roll)

Dirk now returned both for the price of one.

 

What am I saying ?

 

Paul, if you are sent one for free and if you dare to hear no difference with any random setting (and otherwise a few prescribed ones) then you are so down the drain of credit ... unbelievable. And this is the point: you would be the first one of objectivists (count me out) taking up that glove. But for free eh ...

So now you can choose to reject, pick it up and hear the clear differences all over the place putting YOU up to the task of proof in measurement (pick your tripod machines) or ... be the first one anywhere not to be able to hear.

Whoa, I most certainly would not pick the latter. I'd better also not reject. Thus ... have fun.

Address please plus required cable length (PM allowed).

 

PS: Someone help me out, please. What would be better ... keep it for free when Paul likes it for the better, or keep it only when it is normally paid for. I vote for the former. But a storm of protest because of illegal influence may roll over ...

 

And Paul, I have no mean intentions. If I may say ... you could be the only one rightfully question what is to be questioned (of that other camp I regard myself to be in as well ).

 

That’s very nice of you to offer. Can’t say I have all the right equipment to measure USB cables, but I have enough experience building and modifying them to know where to look. I’ll PM you. Do let me know what settings to use for best effect, though.

 

And  of course, I’ll have no issue saying that there is no difference if there isn’t one, but will be very interested in finding out what causes it, if there is.

 

 

 

[Jud]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

I understand. But what about the annoyance factor ? I mean, if you really are put up the task of surviving with the worst "config" (haha) ever, you'd know, would you ? that is my 5 days (or even linger these days) story.

 

Or maybe you recall  @Jud's test. I was the only one (or the best of it) that could dig out whatever it was guitar comparisons (I really forgot). One thing I will not forget: it was under a cookers hoover (hood) of more than 70dB of noise, the test music playing at ~85dB 6 meters further in the room. Key: unconsciousness. And I did that on purpose.

There have been more of these contests (Julf's Redbook vs Hires) ... I always "win" them.

How ?

Don't pay attention but observe annoyance. 

This actually can't be done with short term A-B. 5 days ? easily.

 

Sorry, Peter, in fact the vast majority of people taking the "objective" test first, as you did, identified the guitars correctly. However, the majority was sufficiently less vast on the "objective" rapid comparison test (2 seconds of guitars, 2 seconds of silence, for 30 seconds) than the "subjective" longer term listening test (30 seconds of guitars) that if the rapid switching comparison were just as good as longer term listening at distinguishing the two guitars from one another, you would expect the numbers actually obtained on the test only 6% of the time.

[PeterSt]

8 minutes ago, Jud said:

That of course was the reason for my "two guitars" test, in which participants were asked

 

So Yes. But a test I (thus) always highly reject to because I can't do that (in my own perception); It is too much explicit and too much A-B.

Still, when I am over here with an auditioner (you know, those for 1 hour which becomes 4) then the A-B surely happens, but I think that adrenaline or something takes over and I can do it after all. There has been no instance that we both would not agree (and "we both" is me and dozens, individually).

 

Jud, it can't be about patterns (for the long term) because I don't even compare with the same music/albums. It's just the general perception (and annoyance factor, or "hip-hop" factor for that matter).

[Jud]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

So Yes. But a test I (thus) always highly reject to because I can't do that (in my own perception); It is too much explicit and too much A-B.

Still, when I am over here with an auditioner (you know, those for 1 hour which becomes 4) then the A-B surely happens, but I think that adrenaline or something takes over and I can do it after all. There has been no instance that we both would not agree (and "we both" is me and dozens, individually).

 

Jud, it can't be about patterns (for the long term) because I don't even compare with the same music/albums. It's just the general perception (and annoyance factor, or "hip-hop" factor for that matter).

 

There is something in the music that sounds "wrong" at some point (perhaps in retrospect after a change). You're comparing what you hear to some mental pattern that is being matched (for irritating sound) or isn't (for good sound or your inner notion of what reflects reality more), else how would you get the feeling you ought to go with one choice rather than another?  And I am not speaking of person-as-machine, but of a good or bad emotional response.

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

Sorry, Peter,

 

So I forgot really (we had something with a Beatles album as well). One thing I will never forget: I like such tests if I can find the time (that's why the during cooking happens in the first place). @manisandherno different (who could be record holder in creating such tests).

This is why it all the more bothers that "we" are accused of derailing a thread about such a test. Never (and I also see no others doing that).

 

And for @sandyk: it again bothers that me, myself and I (and Mani) were accused not to recognize canon balls from thunderstorms. No discussion which is what (singing saws) but *that* eager some people are (me).

Eh ... peace ?

[Jud]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

So I forgot really (we had something with a Beatles album as well).

 

I liked the stereo version of "I'll Follow the Sun," you strongly preferred mono.  (In this you probably agree with the measurements, most dedicated Beatles fans, and the boys themselves.)

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

else how would you get the feeling you ought to go with one choice rather than another?

 

Pain ?

Please keep in mind how loud I play. If it sustains throughout (including dinner still being prepared instead of the other half jumping out to the takeaway) then all is fine.

So it is a quite physical thing. Physiological maybe - and with that, mood influencing.

 

But of course this can't be about A-B. Just playing music.

 

Something else: without physical pain, all can sound the same and boring throughout. That hurts too (physiologically). So it is all not so easy ...