Popular Post crenca Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Based on that it's all about winning. The winning is pointless. This isn't a debate club. It's an audio site. Most are here to some extent to enjoy listening to their system and music. I'm also here to see if I can pick up any useful tips to increase that enjoyment. Over the years, that's worked out quite well for me. That's the common ground. Some may require different approaches to get there, whether subjectivist or objectivist. Great. No need to try and convince everyone else that only your way is the right way. Make your point and move on. Right. So using the cable thread mansr pointed out the objective facts, sandyk said "that's not true - we subjectivists have these experiences" and the objectivists say "that's not true, the signal is such and such" and...there is no real common ground. No one "wins", rather a debate ensues... Ok, so now what? Ajax and PeterSt 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
esldude Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Jud said: Have you ever done blinded testing where there *is* in fact a difference to control for the expectation bias that there will be no difference? If not, how can you be confident blinded testing would show a difference if one exists? Have your blind testing protocols sought to determine the contribution of echoic memory by using procedures that depend on memory and procedures that don't, and comparing the results? There are so many factors to control for, bias and otherwise, in a truly scientific, objective test before the results can be considered potentially authoritative. Then they must be replicable. Liking the idea of being objective and scientific is great, but there's a heck of a lot of work to be done to reach the reality. BTW, yeah I've tested myself on echoic memory. The difference in quick switching 10second segments and 30 second segments is huge. Yet so many insist only long term listening works. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Based on that it's all about winning. The winning is pointless. This isn't a debate club. It's an audio site. Most are here to some extent to enjoy listening to their system and music. I'm also here to see if I can pick up any useful tips to increase that enjoyment. Over the years, that's worked out quite well for me. That's the common ground. Some may require different approaches to get there, whether subjectivist or objectivist. Great. No need to try and convince everyone else that only your way is the right way. Make your point and move on. I assume we are all "tired of winning" by now... 89reksal, daverich4 and pkane2001 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, esldude said: On another forum is a fair discussion about speaker distortion. That's an area that really matters and you don't need any special sauce to make it interesting. Mostly that is the only area worth pursuing for better sound quality on the playback end. It is funny that we don't seem to have very many (if any) arguments over the reality of differences in speakers. Why? Because (a) the differences are easily measured, even if not easily heard, and (b) such claims don't countravene the laws of physics. Sonicularity, sarvsa, Ajax and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, crenca said: AHHH! But you DO! Subjectivism is about the "trying", not about engineering. It's like you say, your not running "a lab", your running a subjective art and wine, try it out and see how it impresses you, objectivist and objective truth be damned experiment - or rather, personal experience. No I don't at all. Hence the stupid smiley face. I was hoping because I was genuinely wanting to hear his impressions. I'd say if anything, it would be more accurate to say subjectivsm is more about believing and trusting yourself. Engineering is a distant something. I don't consider myself qualified on the technical aspects so not much point trying to use engineering as a criteria. On the other hand, if I'm familiar enough or have done enough "research" to have faith in the engineering or science, then that may very well become a factor. Teresa 1 Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, Sal1950 said: That should be a difference that will be easily determined in a blind test, hell even one of those audiophool "wife heard it from the kitchen" proclamations Yes, you've understood correctly. Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, crenca said: Right. So using the cable thread mansr pointed out the objective facts, sandyk said "that's not true - we subjectivists have these experiences" and the objectivists say "that's not true, the signal is such and such" and...there is no real common ground. No one "wins", rather a debate ensues... Exactly. Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Based on that it's all about winning. The winning is pointless. This isn't a debate club. It's an audio site. Most are here to some extent to enjoy listening to their system and music. I'm also here to see if I can pick up any useful tips to increase that enjoyment. Over the years, that's worked out quite well for me. That's the common ground. Some may require different approaches to get there, whether subjectivist or objectivist. Great. No need to try and convince everyone else that only your way is the right way. Make your point and move on. Some people are splitters and others are lumpers, said another way, some people look for differences and others look for commonality. Your OP suggests that you are trying to oppose so called Subjectivists vs Objectivists. I resent such labels. There are so many other potential labels that to characterize a person as A or B is an artificial categorization and such categorizations foster tribal behavior. There is value in listening and there is value in measurements. There is value in building something yourself and there is value in buying something prebuilt. Yes, most people here are, I presume, here to improve their audio reproduction. There is much to be learned from listening, and there is much to be learned from engineering. To place yourself entirely in one camp or the other is severely limiting. That is your own choice and now that you've learned not to stick your tongue on freezing metal, you've also learned not to stick your right hand, left hand, right foot, left foot and other moist body parts onto freezing metal. Likewise you should avoid glowing red metals... In any case we all have different ways of learning, and some of us like to learn in different ways so please don't assume... semente, Ajax, Jud and 4 others 5 1 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, lasker98 said: I'd say if anything, it would be more accurate to say subjectivsm is more about believing and trusting yourself. Engineering is a distant something. I don't consider myself qualified on the technical aspects so not much point trying to use engineering as a criteria. On the other hand, if I'm familiar enough or have done enough "research" to have faith in the engineering or science, then that may very well become a factor. Well stated. Because it's audio, you can do that. Of course, you can't do that with the car you put your children into, the medicines you take, or the airplane you board. If the objective truth of airdynamics, mechanical engineering, and yes digital communication (modern airplanes are "fly by wire" now) was a "distant something", well then you and your loved ones would be dead or seriously injured. But because its audio you can make it about a subjective personal journey about "believing, trusting", and discovering yourself. Here, you can believe and "try" theories about audio (a mechanical/physical phenomena) that no one in their right mind would just "try" in the airplane they were about to use. Ajax, askat1988, sarvsa and 2 others 4 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, jabbr said: In any case we all have different ways of learning, and some of us like to learn in different ways so please don't assume... Not sure where that's coming from but right back at ya ? Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 hours ago, pkane2001 said: I apologize if I misinterpreted your intentions, but on re-reading your words, I still get the same impression: objectivists have nothing better to do here but to attack subjectivists and to derail their threads. I think that you are reading way too much into what he has posted, and immediately gone on the defensive. An Expectation Bias perhaps ? Not all Objectivists or Subjectivists are tarred with the same brush, neither do they all have rigid beliefs, with some having an interest in what they hear, as well as the measurements that may, or may not, confirm what they have heard. You fall into this group. The problem is when some take measurements as having complete precedence over listening, and decide that those who disagree are in need of a reality check. They then go on a religious crusade to re-educate the people who disagree with them, quoting much earlier research in many cases as if the existing known Science is an absolute. Neither are they normally willing to try any suggestions or remedial products that others have found useful in their particular setup. They simply dismiss them out of hand as worthless or Snake Oil products. RickyV 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Jud Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 19 minutes ago, esldude said: BTW, yeah I've tested myself on echoic memory. The difference in quick switching 10second segments and 30 second segments is huge. Yet so many insist only long term listening works. Is 4 or 5 better than 10? ? Said with a smile, but I'm also curious. Have you had the opportunity to compare shorter periods than 10 seconds? As I've said before, I'd also like to see simultaneous comparison of left and right channels using mono source to eliminate memory as a factor entirely, and put those results up against the memory dependent ones. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 30 minutes ago, Sal1950 said: Yes it can be very difficult (blind testing) to do right. But in many cases it should be relatively easy. When lasker98 tell us to listen to some very expensive USB cable and that the difference will "Blow you away". That should be a difference that will be easily determined in a blind test, hell even one of those audiophool "wife heard it from the kitchen" proclamations. You would have determined whether there was a difference great enough it couldn't possibly be ignored. But if a subjective belief that something is possible can build castles in the air, shouldn't we pay due respect to a subjective belief that it's not possible? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, sandyk said: Not all Objectivists or Subjectivists are tarred with the same brush, neither do they all have rigid beliefs, with some having an interest in what they hear, as well as the measurements that may, or may not, confirm what they have heard. You fall into this group. That is the first time I hear you say this, Alex. So, thank you! ? RickyV 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 30 minutes ago, crenca said: But because its audio you can make it about a subjective personal journey about "believing, trusting", and discovering yourself. Here, you can believe and "try" theories about audio (a mechanical/physical phenomena) that no one in their right mind would just "try" in the airplane they were about to use. In other words : " Trust me, I am an Engineer/Physician/Politician and I know what's best for you ! " All 3 groups have two things in common. They are human, and they all make mistakes from time to time. Recently an aeroplane dived into the sea. Recently a 4 months old , almost 400 apartments high rise block in Sydney started to crack and become in need of urgent repair, not because of shoddy workmanship, but an engineering mistake .All residents have been forced to vacate for an expected 10 days while engineers investigate. PeterSt and Teresa 2 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Jud Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 37 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Engineering is a distant something. Hey, it's what you're listening to/through. ? crenca 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I'm not in the mood to digest this brand new, for me, thread - umm, the weather ... ... excellent OP, BTW . I can guess most of what's been said, repetition of everything said already an infinite number of times - with very little crossover between the parties. My POV is that everyone is 'right' - in some areas. That is, no new physics is needed; engineering can get it to work "perfectly"; every tiny damn thing matters; amazing quality can be realised if one keeps fiddling with "silly stuff"; and so on ... How does this reconcile? The simple answer is that human hearing is remarkably acute to minor anomalies in the sound, and they have to be dealt with, thoroughly, for one to be at peace, during the listening; and it's the lack of desire by the "scientific crowd" to accept, 1) that this is true, and, 2) that what they do currently is not "good enough", that they have to lift their standards. 89reksal 1 Link to comment
esldude Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Jud said: Is 4 or 5 better than 10? ? Said with a smile, but I'm also curious. Have you had the opportunity to compare shorter periods than 10 seconds? As I've said before, I'd also like to see simultaneous comparison of left and right channels using mono source to eliminate memory as a factor entirely, and put those results up against the memory dependent ones. For me it seems like it tops out around 7 to 8 seconds. Could maybe arrange for some dual mono tests of some sort. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
look&listen Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 hours ago, lasker98 said: I believe there's enough of a possibility that the measurements were flawed, incomplete or biased that they're pretty much irrelevant to me in any kind of purchasing decision. Also poor correlation to hearing tests. Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 hours ago, esldude said: BTW, yeah I've tested myself on echoic memory. The difference in quick switching 10second segments and 30 second segments is huge. Yet so many insist only long term listening works. See, here I'm "on the side of" the objectivists. The audible difference should be clearcut, as noticeable as an unwanted rattling that suddenly pops up in your car; if you have to switch on your thinking, to decide, then "you've lost". Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Man, if only speakers were all that mattered ... that thought will keep me happily chuckling for a good 24 hours, . Link to comment
Popular Post PeterSt Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 hours ago, esldude said: BTW, yeah I've tested myself on echoic memory. The difference in quick switching 10second segments and 30 second segments is huge. Yet so many insist only long term listening works. Dennis, I don't get it. So long term listening unveils even more difference ? I am saying this because it is the only thing which works for me. Like 5 days (unless it fails right away or at the same day). Quick switching never can work because what's heard in one will be heard forever in the other. OK, I guess this is off topic. But my first "normal" response to an evenly normal post. I hope. Teresa, RickyV, semente and 1 other 4 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, fas42 said: Man, if only speakers were all that mattered ... And a strange thing again: speakers would be my last worry. Seriously. So what's happening ? (actually responding to Dennis again) Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, look&listen said: Also poor correlation to hearing tests. In all honesty ... can someone show me measurements which show better on the figures but sound worse ? Small bet: No. Unless, of course, the measurements are so way off that nothing can be made of them to begin with. So the other odd thing: people keep on talking about measurements ... but where are they ? PS: Null tests ending at whatever -dB don't count because the whatever -dB is subjective to the tester to begin with. Prejudiced (wherever that came from). -> Oh, I know, we can't perceive a -120dB signal. Bwehhhhhh. Solves all ! But nothing. semente 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
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