Ralf11 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 52 minutes ago, wgscott said: I am beginning to think people keep arguing about this because nothing interesting has happened in this hobby (or whatever you want to call it) in a fairly long time. (MQA was a nice try, but ...) add Gallium - see what happens Link to comment
Popular Post diecaster Posted December 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2018 Okay. I wasn't going to weigh in on this as it got rather messy....but I think it can still be constructive. I am part subjectivist and part objectivist. Which side dominates depends on how illogical the subjective side becomes. For example, if you tell me that one USB cable used between your computer and your DAC sounds better to you than another, I have no problem wrapping my head around that as I have experienced it as well. The logic is that different USB cables present a different set of electrical signals to the DACs USB PHY which in turn generate different types and levels of noise in the DAC. Those differences can change the sound change the sound coming out of the DAC. The level of illogical is quite low so it is much easier to accept subjective reports. Another example is the idea that a general purpose computer with standard clocks, numerous expansion ports, and RAM slots running a low latency OS in RAM can be better sounding than a purpose built computer that has only the necessary ports with ultra quiet USB and Ethernet implementations, better clocks, and cleaner power. The level of illogical rises too far here. It prompts me to ask questions. If I tell the forum that my system sounds much cleaner with a much improved soundstage if I put several hockey pucks on the floor to the side of each speaker, I suspect average forum member would not accept my subjective opinion . If I told the forum that NOS tubes sound better in my amp than current production Chinese tubes, I suspect average forum member would accept my subjective opinion. If the forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter how illogical, we, as a group, lose all credibility as audio enthusiasts. If our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, what good are they? If you say all opinions and positions posted here are valid no matter what, the opinions and positions posted here cannot be trusted to contain real and useful information. jabbr and semente 1 1 Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: 16 hours ago, PeterSt said: Those who it is about ask for "education" of some sort and that won't happen easily in the way it currently goes. Or maybe it *is* possible but then there's more adultry (?) required from us than the age we bear. Peter, adultry [sic] hmm acting like adults for sure, not sure about adultery tho , maybe ? OK, this was one of the more rare occasions that I made up a word, did not look it up and put a (?) instead. Didn't go well. I will rephrase: Those who it is about ask for "education" of some sort and that won't happen easily in the way it currently goes. Or maybe it *is* possible but then there's more adultery required from us than than the age we bear. Of course there's the risk that those who try won't be allowed to come back, but at least they will then have the education to post in this forum with more sense. More life experience. What still bugs me is that age. And looking alone won't help much. It even is so that when you report about this as an old fossil - like watching a woman in the airplane breastfeeding - you risk a ban. So I don't know. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, PeterSt said: OK, this was one of the more rare occasions that I made up a word Peter, check your PMs Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, diecaster said: If the forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter how illogical, we, as a group, lose all credibility as audio enthusiasts. If our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, what good are they? If you say all opinions and positions posted here are valid no matter what, the opinions and positions posted here cannot be trusted to contain real and useful information. Very well put. It contains so many contradictions that it boggles the mind. And the more true it is, likely for that very reason. Still it can be done, if first we were "educated" to express genuine experience and not just spout something because of spouting. And I suppose we all know of the example that people exist who really do so. And if they could be recognized and numbed so what remains are true experiences, I would believe your hockey pucks unprecedented. I really would and everybody would. The community would then be like that. It's first thought. And next I would tell the community that putting a knot in the loudspeaker cable makes a difference for the better. Many will try and half may experience that it is so. The other half will not and blame himself for it for one or the other reason. Still, the half where it works is happy and is happy to be in this hobby. The other half is also happy and will try a next thing an other day. It would be a kind of a different world. PS: This really can work when it is done from the ground up. No heated discussions, though. But more fruitful, net. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 31 minutes ago, PeterSt said: And next I would tell the community that putting a knot in the loudspeaker cable makes a difference for the better. Does getting your knickers in a knot make a difference for the better too ? How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, sandyk said: Does getting your knickers in a knot make a difference for the better too ? Depending on where it's done ... um ... No. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
hineni Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 On 12/28/2018 at 12:35 PM, lasker98 said: I have no idea about your background but do you honestly believe that everything relating to the science of electronics is already known? Nothing more to be learned? When it comes to audio electronics, yes actually, I think we’ve pretty much got it nailed with digital and amplification. At the very least, if someone claims audible, night-and day, jaw-dropping, palpable differences in audio gear, we are able to easily show, objectively, why that is the case. If two different amplifiers have identical power output, frequency responses, distortion characteristics and reaction to load, do you think those two amplifiers will sound exactly the same? If not, exactly what mechanism do you propose to explain the difference in sound? crenca 1 Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 The Water Bear dude abides! Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 46 minutes ago, hineni said: If two different amplifiers have identical power output, frequency responses, distortion characteristics and reaction to load, do you think those two amplifiers will sound exactly the same? If not, exactly what mechanism do you propose to explain the difference in sound? You neglected to mention channel separation among other things like Input impedance. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, sandyk said: You neglected to mention channel separation among other things like Input impedance. or perhaps some other measure as yet not accounted for Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Allan F Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 hours ago, diecaster said: If the forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter how illogical, we, as a group, lose all credibility as audio enthusiasts. If our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, what good are they? If you say all opinions and positions posted here are valid no matter what, the opinions and positions posted here cannot be trusted to contain real and useful information. The problem with the above is that the underlying premise is flawed. No one is suggesting that all "forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter what" and no one is saying that "all opinions and positions here are valid no matter what". As to the question of "what good are they?" if our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, that begs the question of what one is looking to gain from the forum. Many of us are interested in the subjective experiences/opinions of others as a basis for considering what we may want to try to improve our own systems. Withstanding objective inquiry simply plays little or no role in this context, notwithstanding the importance of such inquiries to skeptics. Over time, individuals learn from experience whose opinions they can trust as credible. Audiophile Neuroscience 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Music Enthusiast Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 If I say something like the below statement, does this make me an objectivist, or a bad subjectivist? "But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles." Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said: If I say something like the below statement, does this make me an objectivist, or a bad subjectivist? "But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles." Expectation bias applies to us all. The quoted statement has an undercurrent of sarcasm suggesting its anti subjectivist. Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Music Enthusiast Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Expectation bias applies to us all. The quoted statement has an undercurrent of sarcasm suggesting its anti subjectivist. Okay here's the entire statement including the first half: "I happen to own a streamer with a fibre optic Ethernet input. And I can't for the life of me hear a single bit of difference between any components I swap upstream of the streamer. Switches, servers, you name it. And it's not because I'm hard of hearing. I could clearly hear the difference between switches, servers, and the supplies that power them when I used to use a streamer that has copper Ethernet inputs. And I can imagine the fibre implementation on the Opticalrendu is at least as good. The only thing I can see affecting a setup with an opticalRendu is the supply powering it, and the miniGBIC module.Well that and if it's receiving enough throughput from the network setup. If not dropouts will be experienced. But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles." Is the person who said this an objectivist, or subjectivist? Link to comment
Popular Post Music Enthusiast Posted December 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2018 I remember back when I was in high school, if you wore a certain style of shirt you were considered a prep. If you wore a certain type of pants you were a skater. And if you wore a certain type of hat you were a douchebag. I used to wear what I liked. This could be a combination of a prep shirt, skater pants, and douchebag hat. What this made me was a loser. Seems like we haven't moved much past high school on audiophile forums. Even though the average age is around 60. RickyV, Audiophile Neuroscience and Hugo9000 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted December 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2018 On 12/28/2018 at 7:39 PM, lasker98 said: I could probably count on one finger the number of times I can remember one of these "more extreme objectivists" had actually tried something for themselves when asked if they had any personal experience Some things don't require a hands-on experience. Would you need to try it to know it would fail? Why? Hugo9000, crenca and esldude 2 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said: Even though the average age is around 60. Are we that old already ? Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, semente said: I agree it is high time for Jeremy Clarkson & Co. Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Music Enthusiast Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 1 minute ago, PeterSt said: Are we that old already ? I think the small group of 40 somethings pulls the average down a bit. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 PS: And not the douchebag actors from the BBC. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Just now, Music Enthusiast said: I think the small group of 40 somethings pulls the average down a bit. So I am even older ?!? Hugo9000 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 1 hour ago, hineni said: I think we’ve pretty much got it nailed with digital and amplification. Huh ? Anyway, pension is my prospect ! Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Popular Post Music Enthusiast Posted December 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, PeterSt said: So I am even older ?!? Not sure. Over 70 is common on audiophile forums. Probably more common than under 40. You wouldn't know it from reading the posts though. Audiophile Neuroscience and Hugo9000 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted December 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Are we that old already ? Give us a break, Peter! Some of us are a lot older than 60. Ageism has no place on CA. PeterSt and Hugo9000 1 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Recommended Posts