Objectivists/Subjectivists

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Interesting, so you are suggesting that Subjectivists aren't interested in the bottom line sound output? See, that further exposes what I see as a S/O distinction that just doesn't hold up.

 

Jonathan, at least your conclusion of this may not be valid. Maybe you meant it the other way around ("Objectivists aren't interested in bottom line sound output") but it may not even be important. Because, in this case it is the neutralist (hey !) which states that enough is enough regardless, but the objectivist determines for him/her what that is. Btw, I agree with you that Objectivist as such is an inexistent term (said so a few days back). Next the perceived subjectivist (in neutral format) just does not care. It it only gives some decent sound.

 

As far as we determined so far, the objectivist isn't interested in improving sound, because it can't to begin with - regarding the objectivist. It measured all right and thus it is fine. Again he ends up with the same cheap etc. I.C. as what the subjectivist in neutral format asked for. Everybody happy.

Except for me and on my part except for you as well, because we are not the genuine objectivists. We paint all with subjective sauce just the same (we measure (self or by following specs to the letter) and we judge the ouput SQ wise too, and if it dissatisfied we probably seek the culprit and go back to the drawing board.

 

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

The distinction here is not S/O rather folks who want to listen to good music vs folks who want to tweak. 

 

I don't recognize this, unless it means Beethoven by means of the Boston Philharmonic vs Young MC and improve on the latter's reproduction by means of ferrites and much more. 

[Jud]

6 hours ago, mansr said:

And make Amir pay for it.

 

That was wonderful.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

The distinction here is not S/O rather folks who want to listen to good music vs folks who want to tweak. i.e. Musicophile vs Tweakophile ?

 

Love listening to good music, also curious about tweaks. Lots of us can be described that way. (Was your interest in ClearFog and espressobin purely musical, or also for the fun of the education?) So not a very clear distinction. (Surely part of your point that any attempt to divide us into opposed camps is wrongheaded from the get-go.)

[Jud]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Perhaps not, but people asking for advice in improving their sound on a budget of $1000 or so are regularly told to spend the bulk of it on exotic power cables, fuses, or other dubious pursuits. That's not what I consider helpful. Even if those items do make a difference, surely you agree they should not be the top priority.

 

All you can do is all you can do - be as helpful as possible, and the recipient will believe who they're gonna believe. Try to concentrate on the help rather than the argument.

[jabbr]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Love listening to good music, also curious about tweaks. Lots of us can be described that way. (Was your interest in ClearFog and espressobin purely musical, or also for the fun of the education?) So not a very clear distinction. (Surely part of your point that any attempt to divide us into opposed camps is wrongheaded from the get-go.)

 

Exactly!

[Teresa]

12 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

ok @lasker98 you're on a forced break from the site. 

 

Since @lasker98 is the OP I wonder would it be a good idea to close this thread until his forced break is over? Just a suggestion, whatever you decide is fine with me as it is your site and I don't envy some of the decisions you have to make. ?

 

I just want to point out I liked @lasker98 original post in this, his thread. It is a shame he called someone a curse word to earn the break. However, I watched as he got more and more frustrated with some of the replies. 

 

12 hours ago, wgscott said:

...The claim was that using a mac mini with its built-in power supply won't even produce "decent" sound...

 

I use the built-in power supply with my 2012 Mac Mini and I find the sound more than decent. Could it be better? I guess so. I'm willing to spend the money to make it so? No.

 

11 hours ago, Currawong said:

...and other people with no money enjoying trashing expensive products that they cannot afford...

 

I just want to say I don't trash what I can't afford. I have a modest audio system and I enjoy music very much played through it.

 

I am a poor audiophile who does not lust after what I cannot afford. If one is rich I can think of much worse things to spend money on than audio equipment. 

 

I will agree there may be people who trash what they cannot afford as a way to emotionally deal with their economic status.

[wgscott]

1 minute ago, Teresa said:

 

I use the built-in power supply with my 2012 Mac Mini and I find the sound more than decent. Could it be better? I guess so. I'm willing to spend the money to make it so? No.

 

Thank you, Teresa!  That is exactly the point I was trying to make.  Telling a beginner that they "have to" make some upgrade to get it to work (get decent sound) is what I was objecting to.  This would hold even if the LPS made it (say) 10% better.  

 

(I also agree with your suggestion to put the thread on ice.)

[manisandher]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

I am not a moderator in here but I do feel responsible for this subject popping up again (I started talking about it).

Can we please now drop it again ? Thanks.

 

With apologies of some kind.

 

No apologies required on my account Peter. I'll drop it, but I don't like having to give Crenca a free pass. Not in my nature.

[Sal1950]

13 hours ago, agtp said:

Sal, do you advocate an objective, science based approach, or are you just projecting and compartmentalizing?  You seem to be contradicting yourself and it's confusing.

Step back from your fantasy world and get in tune with the reality of known science.  There is no Santa Claus my friend.

I know he's already been banned (again) but I'm sure he's still reading.

 

ROTFLMAO

Are you serious, what did you do, keep a file on my posts? Or did you sit at the keyboard for hours doing research on the number of times you could find me using some religious term?  TOO TOO funny.

Sorry if my very minor religious thoughts are offensive to you. All I've done was to wish others well.  Maybe you can get even by going out and kicking over some Christmas trees?   LOL

[Sal1950]

13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

People come to CA to have fun and increase their enjoyment of this wonderful hobby. To you that may mean interjecting every conversation with statements about putting up or shutting up. For others, this means experimenting with whatever they want and talking about it amongst friends who feel the same. 

 

Do you understand that not everyone cares about a rigorous scientific approach to their hobby?

I do, but I know you understand my reasoning on people also being able to hear opposing points of view and not be hoodwinked by mass histarira.

No reason for us to debate, it's your site so you will ultimately decide on how to handle things.  I hope it doesn't turn into blind censorship of the objective approach like has happened at headfi, WBF, and others dedicated to group stroking of delusional hearing. 

[Dutch]

15 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

mass histarira

 

16 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

group stroking of delusional hearing

 

 

Nice, even if you spelled it right it would still be as offensive and have no other purpose than show contempt and riling up the crowd.

[Ralf11]

58 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

...kicking over some Christmas trees?   ...

 

all those opposed to pagans rituals should do that

 

but if no one hears it on the internet... did it still happen?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

10 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Who said only one kind of reply is permitted?

9 hours ago, mansr said:

You, for instance.

 

 

IMO mischievous mis-characterisation on your part. The "one reply" that I have advocated, and I believe that I am totally in keeping with @The Computer Audiophile with this "one reply" policy - is for a little civility, respect, and consideration shown for others. before the avalanche of "yes buts", those terms are as interpreted and as would be enforced by @The Computer Audiophile as is "act like an adult".

 

If I am wrong about this I ask @The Computer Audiophile to let me know and I will immediately quit CA never to return.

 

I seek all opinions and try and maintain a scientific indifference to the outcome not a doctrinaire and slavish adherence to one audio faction .

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

If I am wrong about this I ask @The Computer Audiophile to let me know and I will immediately quit CA never to return.

 

Be careful what you wish for! (just kidding )

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, Teresa said:

I just want to point out I liked @lasker98 original post in this, his thread. It is a shame he called someone a curse word to earn the break. However, I watched as he got more and more frustrated with some of the replies. 

 

 This is a common tactic used by a few members.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

26 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Be careful what you wish for! (just kidding )

 

Haha yes. It's no biggy for me though. I have been absent for a great many months at a time only returning for the Moderators thread. If that doesn't carry a positive outcome I am gone. Like others before me eg Barry Diament, I have no interest in revisiting the same S/O bullsh*t and childish personal attacks that pervades and derails most threads of interest to me. I own high end equipment. Try discussing that here without a flack jacket and helmet ! Not this little black duck. It's not that *I* need a "safe space" it's because the thread would be derailed after 3 posts. (for me) there is no point in returning without additional moderation/ moderators .

[wgscott]

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

a cartoon depicting being baited - seems appropriate ?

[wgscott]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I seek all opinions and try and maintain a scientific indifference to the outcome not a doctrinaire and slavish adherence to one audio faction .

 

Oh, please.

[Sonicularity]

8 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

a cartoon depicting being baited - seems appropriate ?

 

I'm sensing a Thomas theorem.

[mansr]

20 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Haha yes. It's no biggy for me though. I have been absent for a great many months at a time only returning for the Moderators thread. If that doesn't carry a positive outcome I am gone. Like others before me eg Barry Diament, I have no interest in revisiting the same S/O bullsh*t and childish personal attacks that pervades and derails most threads of interest to me. I own high end equipment. Try discussing that here without a flack jacket and helmet ! Not this little black duck. It's not that *I* need a "safe space" it's because the thread would be derailed after 3 posts. (for me) there is no point in returning without additional moderation/ moderators .

[plissken]

On 12/28/2018 at 2:51 PM, lasker98 said:

If I'm wrong, I apologize. Have you ever tried a high-end USB or digital cable? By high-end I'll consider >$200.00.

 

I have also. Both USB and Ethernet.

 

But here is the issue:

 

Not one person here claiming all sorts of dubious merits will submit to a single blinded test.

 

I find that subjectivists simply trust, objectivists verify.

 

So let me offer ONCE AGAIN, with either a 'high end' usb or ethernet cable a SBT setup.

 

If USB we will use Windows 8 or 10 with sound mix installed and drive two identical DAC's into a quality pre-amp with remote control for A/B testing.

 

One DAC will have the 'HIGH END' usb cable and the other a 18" Belkin cable. Both must meet the ISO spec.

 

If Ethernet I can do this with a machine running JRiver or Tidal and a switch in a LACP or PaGP Etherchannel config. We can swap out cables while music is streaming

[fas42]

The heavy handed application of "attitude" is what disturbs many ... like in a post just above, "(forums) dedicated to group stroking of delusional hearing."

[wgscott]

5 minutes ago, Sonicularity said:

 

I'm sensing a Thomas theorem.

 

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

I find that subjectivists simply trust, objectivists verify.

 

Subjectivists simply trust (that their ears are telling them the most important information), objectivists (attempt to) verify (that there is something measurable that is easy to correlate with significant audible changes, but usually fail).