Objectivists/Subjectivists

[Music Enthusiast]

If I say something like the below statement, does this make me an objectivist, or a bad subjectivist? 

 

"But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles." 

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Expectation bias applies to us all. The quoted statement has an undercurrent of sarcasm suggesting its anti subjectivist.

Okay here's the entire statement including the first half:

 

"I happen to own a streamer with a fibre optic Ethernet input. And I can't for the life of me hear a single bit of difference between any components I swap upstream of the streamer. Switches, servers, you name it. And it's not because I'm hard of hearing. I could clearly hear the difference between switches, servers, and the supplies that power them when I used to use a streamer that has copper Ethernet inputs. 

 

And I can imagine the fibre implementation on the Opticalrendu is at least as good. The only thing I can see affecting a setup with an opticalRendu is the supply powering it, and the miniGBIC module.Well that and if it's receiving enough throughput from the network setup. If not dropouts will be experienced.

 

 But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles."

 

Is the person who said this an objectivist, or subjectivist?

 

 

 

[Music Enthusiast]

I remember back when I was in high school, if you wore a certain style of shirt you were considered a prep. If you wore a certain type of pants you were a skater. And if you wore a certain type of hat you were a douchebag. I used to wear what I liked. This could be a combination of a prep shirt, skater pants, and douchebag hat. What this made me was a loser. Seems like we haven't moved much past high school on audiophile forums. Even though the average age is around 60. 

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

Are we that old already ?

I think the small group of 40 somethings pulls the average down a bit. 

[Music Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

So I am even older ?!?

Not sure. Over 70 is common on audiophile forums. Probably more common than under 40. You wouldn't know it from reading the posts though. 

[Music Enthusiast]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

Wow. OK, admittedly 10 years ago many of my own forum members were heading to their 60's. Today this should be 70's.

 

But you say that we are trying to talk to mostly 70 year old ? I guess so.

Maybe that ...

nah ...

There's not much for new blood between 30 and 50 taking up this hobby to the level they desire to participate in forums. It's mostly the same group who's been around from day 1 of audio forums going around in circles with the same arguments they were having from their 1st day. Never learning a thing, only riding the merry-go-round. 

[Music Enthusiast]

2 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 Well, sounds like he/she is wrestling with the results. My guess someone with a foot in both camps and trying to reconcile same. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Do you mean balanced viewpoint, and understanding that the world isn't just black or white? Is that allowed? Or is it against the terms and conditions of the forum? 

[Music Enthusiast]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

So those with the age of, say, 60+ are the objectivists.

Aha, that sheds some light.

Well I suppose many of the crowd from the 50's 60's era where the industry was in search of "high fidelity" are likely in that camp. Later on in the late 70's-80's many started catching on the measured results that insinuate high fidelity, do not mean it will result in what the younger crowd called  "musicality". 

[Music Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Good question. Who are you?

 

 

I'm an anonymous internet poster just like 97% of the others who participate on this forum. 

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

 

 

Just what we need. A newbie with a really positive and uplifting attitude.

I smell ostracism coming my way! Bring out the pitchforks and torches men!

[Music Enthusiast]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Maybe I have his backward. I thought you referred to the now older people in their younger days used a term "musicality". In that case Chris would have missed it.

It's a really pleasant word that fits right in with the euphemism movement that started in the early 80's. Anyone is free to use it.  

[Music Enthusiast]

21 minutes ago, Allan F said:

Don't flatter yourself! Pitchforks and torches require a lot of expense and effort.

Ahh so the good old lets all PM each other and come up with a plan on how we can whine to the moderators and waste their time? 

 

"Ahh somebody isn't in 1 of our 2 traditional 2 camps. We must eliminate him. Standard protocol boys." Chrissssssssssss!!!!!!

[Music Enthusiast]

4 minutes ago, Allan F said:

Or maybe there should be a rule that newbies have a probationary period during which negativity is not tolerated.

No negativity here. Just stating facts about audio forum demographics. And the constant bickering that takes place from this demographic involved in this hobby. Facts cannot be either positive or negative. Positivity or negativity felt from hearing facts are only a fabrication made in the mind of the reader. If one cannot read about facts without triggering a negative emotional response, the internet isn't for them. 

[Music Enthusiast]

Start a thread about fairies and butterflies and then the facts could be perceived as more positive. Objectivists/Subjectivists is just someone looking for a scrap. 

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

All right. Then the subjectivist is loaded with positivity (it always gets better) and the subjectivist is charged with both, just because he says so. Obviously this is not-charged. However, in common language we call them negativists.

This is how the positivists always hear differences (they have to because they need to improve) and the negativists are regarded deaf (they never hear a change anywhere).

 

And funny again: My spelling correction not only doesn't know about objectivists but now also doesn't know about negativists.

From this all should follow that the objectivist/negativist does not exist hence is fake. Or perhaps is faking.

Ok so we are still living in the world of black and white. Grey doesn't exist. 

[Music Enthusiast]

4 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

What means "looking for a scrap" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOW22gIXrPk

[Music Enthusiast]

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

A hah I am a measurement guy and I know the correct figure is 97.2567% !!! 

Watch the video in my last post. That guy is also a measurement guy. Only he uses his finger. 

[Music Enthusiast]

"To see the world in black and white is to live within the contours of extremism. This outlook neatly divides the world into right versus wrong, good versus evil, and yes versus no.

This thinking is dependent upon such words as always and never. Especially in times of crisis, the black and white worldview is looked upon as strength and courage to the casual observer.

Black and white thinking makes up a good portion of American cinema. It does not require much analysis to determine who is the “good guy” and who is the “bad guy.”

John Wayne, who is an American icon, made millions portraying himself in myriad roles as a clear thinking man of action. Wayne, the character, was definitely a man who had little use for nuance; and once a decision was made that was it.

America’s ongoing struggle with race is usually summed up in black and white terms. Though appearing to be the best choice in the short term, black and white thinking can bring about long-term negative consequences.

The problem with black and white thinking is that it usually does battle in a world that is nuanced and gray.

Cognitive analysis begins in black and white terms, this is how children learn to use words and organize their thoughts. How many parents have provided their seven-year-old with a rule, only to later alter the decree ever so slightly and have the child retort with: “But you said?” In the world of Developmental Psychology this is called primitive thinking.

As adults, we are prone to primitive thinking during moments of crisis and stress. Mark Sichel, author and psychotherapist, writes, “When the adult starts relying on the words “always” or “never,” and seeing the world in black and white terms, they are slipping back to the way they saw the world as a child.”

In the world of black and white we can become overwhelmed with the desire to find “the” answer. This is why church attendance grew across the country immediately following 9/11—folks looking for an answer, trying to understand the “why” question.

For all of the obvious short- term reasons to embrace black and white thinking, there is definite a downside.

Not only does black and white thinking show little appreciation for the world of gray it has even less for the concept of self-reflection. To self-reflect, especially after a decision has been made, could open one to the possibility of being wrong—which defeats the purpose of black and white thinking. Many psychologists maintain that black and white thinking actually exasperates mental health issues like depression and anxiety.

 

Black and white thinking is also flawed because it inherently assumes a static world. It is dependent upon everything and everyone maintaining the role that such thinking has already preordained.

There is little regard for the human condition that does not correspond to its beliefs, because black and white thinking is rooted more toward the generic than the situational. Failure becomes harder to confront because one tends to place an inordinate amount of energy being right. It is an unfortunate default against the complexities of the world.

Our political leadership has been at its best when those leaders have dared to enter into the world of gray. Imagine how America would be different had Washington, Lincoln, or Roosevelt maintained black and white thinking throughout their respective wars. Their greatness today is not measured simply by the end result but also by their ability to adapt in lieu of unsuspected challenges—some by their own making.

It requires far less courage to live in the black and white than it does to live in the gray. The world of gray requires that we show up and be present. It does not afford us the luxury of putting life on automatic pilot.

Moreover, black and white thinking, though it may provide momentary comfort, is simply unrealistic to sustain. After all, even black and white photos come with their own varying shades of gray."

[Music Enthusiast]

34 minutes ago, Thomas savage said:

Having been on both sides or at least observed  both side of this rather ridiculous self imposed division Iv come to this conclusion..

 

the Internet fosters dual narratives / binary debate that otherwise might not take hold so vigorously otherwise. You can see this base reactionary dynamic all over the Internet, people have been given a voice online and simply get very used to secluding that voice from questioning forces. On audiophile forums this tends to mean two groups of self affirming people’s.

 

You have those that want to express their listening thoughts unencumbered by challenging voices, they might want to make up their own logic mechanisms to ratify their experiences . I see this as a kind of creative almost artist undertaking where people can just express themselves without let or hinderance.  This wave of freedom is seductive and many will defend it even when this might push the debate to quite fantastical areas of complete nonsense that they otherwise would never do. Through protecting this new license they often can become uncharacteristicly illogical.  The defence of this ‘free thought’ tends to mean disregarding and mistrusting knowledge as “how can it be true when my intuition and listening experience say to me it’s not”..  this path is the easiest place to walk, Iv done it and it’s great. It’s a fantastic self affirming bubble that requires no entrance exam or effort and buys you into the audiophile club as your fellow audiophile will gain mutual affirmation from you so your very welcome. I think it’s call enabling. 

 

 

Then theres these really annoying people that come along just as your in mid flow describing how you’re so happy with your new power conditioner and just how it all works in your mind and how this is all backed up by your listening impressions they come along quite uninvited and start telling you your wrong .  This is unpleasant, generally though it’s ok as your online buddies will back you up and chase them away. Hopefully to hydrogen audio , like who wants to go to that den of kill joys anyway.  Meanwhile your left knowing somewhere your lacking in real knowledge but who wants to admit that anyway, it’s probably the case Science is yet to understand hearing and your ideas are just as valid as theirs .. 

 

we have a break down , a breakdown in the respect for knowledge and a breakdown in communication as being online we are missing many facets involved in real world interactions and we live in a bizarre world where traditional pillars of knowledge compete with the self affirmed on the Internet. It’s all a bit of a mess. 

 

What we need is both sides ( just playing along with the self imposed definitions here) to make room for that feeling they get when they get irked out of their comfort zone and try and drop the typical defensive reactions that cause all this tension . The objectivists need to stop assuming everyone needs to know they are wrong and feel it’s their duty to take it on themselves to say so at every opportunity.  In turn the so called subjectivist need to make room for that fact they might be ignorant and instead of taking offence look at it as a opportunity to explore another way and maybe go and see if there’s something to what these grumpy guys are saying.

 

Not all objectivists are wise, many are just as guilty of ignorance as anyone else but ime they are more willing to face that ignorance down and be challenged in a respectful and civilised manner.

 

please try and coexist here at computer audiophile, cut each other some room it’s not like anyone’s stealing your Mrs it’s just a Audio forum . If you don’t manage this the hobby and to a degree all of you will be poorer for it.

 

Well done if you got through all that ha ha and if you did thanks for reading .   

 

BW

 

Thomas

 

You are suggesting a balanced viewpoint to folks who have been taught by society from the day they were born that the world is either black or white. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks.

 

You're also suggesting that self proclaimed objectivists who lurk on Internet forums are actually knowledgable. Not the case. Most objectivists who have anything worthwhile to offer avoid forums like the plague.

 

One thing the subjectivists have on them is they do have the ability to accurately describe what their senses are telling them. Whether or not some of it may be placebo based. If that particular product becomes a success partly due to placebo effect, then that product is a success either way. If it brings joy to the person who paid for it, then no harm was done. Job well done by the designer. Mission accomplished. 

[Music Enthusiast]

5 minutes ago, Thomas savage said:

 

 

 

Your entire post is filled with undertones that the objectivists are correct, and the subjectivist's have closed minds. And as a moderator of an objectivist forum, it's no surprise.

 

However the areas you guys lack understanding is that if the product sells and makes the people who buy it happy, and it doesn't burn down your house, the company who made it was successful. No matter what formula this success was derived from. The knowledge to be able to accomplish this can not be found from learning how to run an Audio Precision audio analysis device. 

[Music Enthusiast]

12 minutes ago, Thomas savage said:

 

 

Well I think these two are conflicting statements, one written without prejudice and then later contradicted when you made  a ‘discovery ‘ . 

 

This serves to highlight the depth of the issue , my post actually documents my own experience as a independent minded person .

No it is not a new discovery to me that if an audio company is successful,  they did a good job. Most companies who make audio gear strive for success. This success is weighed by the sales numbers, combined with positive client feedback. And most successful companies who sell audio gear in this industry publish very little for objective data. What this tells me is you're chasing the wrong goal with that soul-less machine over at ASR. If this wasn't the case then the majority of successful companies in the industry would publish more data.

 

What you should be focusing on is discovering the formula of building successful audio gear. Not gear that appeals to a very limited demographic. Most of the gear that's the highest rated over on ASR, does very poorly when it comes to bringing pleasure to the ears of the masses. Unless you're specifically targeting folks who only have experience with very poor sounding gear. Then the feedback from them can give a false impression to newcomers that those products will actually satisfy them as well. 

[Music Enthusiast]

36 minutes ago, Thomas savage said:

 

 

 

Reason is a fair aspersion, and there are many out there that exploit people’s ignorance for profit.  

If someone derives pleasure from an audio gear purchase, ignorant is the last thing they should be called. The whole point of being an enthusiast of audio gear should be to enjoy how it stimulates the senses of the person who makes the purchase. If a company is producing gear that achieves this, they aren't exploiting anyone. They are doing a good job. 

[Music Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Not the best thing.

Do the clients who buy your products enjoy what they hear? BTW you would be burned at the stake over at ASR for making a USB cable. 

[Music Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Give my special regards to AmirM.

According to Amir, if the USB cable makes any difference connected to your DAC that only means your DAC is poorly designed. 

[Music Enthusiast]

5 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Subjectively ?

Honestly ?

I think so. Now what.

Yes subjectively. If so does that mean you did a good or bad job on the design?