Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 I do not find the spectrum of objectivist vs. subjectivist very enlightening. There are really 3 areas of interest: 1. subjective listening impressions - these are subject to all sorts of biases, but are easy to do and can be useful if the listener is good at describing his perceptions in words (true for audio and wine, etc.). Importantly, there is a VAST scientific literature on these biases, including quite a lot of cross-sensory work from either Oxford or Cambridge (I forget which but posted some links months ago). 2. subjective listening tests - here, biases are eliminated (or at least, reduced) by std. scientific protocols such as blind testing; rudimentary statistical analysis removes outcomes that are due to chance 3. mechanistic analyses - this is very useful for professionals designing equipment and those who may be able to work around various defects (e.g. EMI down a USB cable and use of an opto-isolator, etc. to remove it) It is always good to have both 2 & 3, but I am happy just to get 2. I do blind testing on my own gear and have had a lot of fun with wine "label whores" at parties and restaurant dinners, etc. Most recently, I did a bucatini* test. * bucatini is the king of long pasta Sonicularity, esldude, Hugo9000 and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 Could be. BTW, I think your OP was pretty good, but got off badly with the resent part. No one is known to have the ability to ignore sensory or perceptual bias. Huge area with tons of research on every sensory modality. esldude, Ajax and 89reksal 1 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 you should have no faith in measurements at all if you want faith try a religion 89reksal 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 enjoyment can be significantly enhanced even if SQ is not increased: euphonic sound, aesthetics (looks), and ergonomics are all good things Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Based on that it's all about winning. The winning is pointless. This isn't a debate club. It's an audio site. Most are here to some extent to enjoy listening to their system and music. I'm also here to see if I can pick up any useful tips to increase that enjoyment. Over the years, that's worked out quite well for me. That's the common ground. Some may require different approaches to get there, whether subjectivist or objectivist. Great. No need to try and convince everyone else that only your way is the right way. Make your point and move on. I assume we are all "tired of winning" by now... 89reksal, pkane2001 and daverich4 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 29, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2018 The real problem is that some people fly into an uncontrollable rage when they are asked how they determined if something is true or not. Sal1950, Sonicularity, esldude and 5 others 8 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Come on Ralf11. You can't honestly believe that? I wouldn't have believed it some years ago. But like other scientists, I have an open mind -- i.e. it is open to new data, of which there is a great abundance on this site. I realize you are fairly new here, but you can either read back threads or just watch the flow of output from the limbic system as it scrolls past... Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 morality?? Abtr and phosphorein 1 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, lasker98 said: We may have different definitions of new, but I've been a member since 2011 while I see you (at least as Ralf11) have been a member since 2016 (and I have 800+ posts while you have 9400+ posts). As far as reading back through threads, I'm finding just trying to follow the few posts in this thread to be almost a full time job. You must be some kind of super human to be able to intelligently follow all the threads and posts you've been involved in. I've done quite a bit of reading & lurking here. While not at all super or even supra-human, I am supposed to be retired (twice) and am a fast reader to boot. Wait and see if there isn't a lot of rage expressed by certain posters. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 12 minutes ago, crenca said: If you directed this to me Ralf11: Yes, my observation is that part of the subjective/objective divide is how the two camps differ in their interpretation of facts themselves in a moral way no I think lasker used that term - seems odd w.r.t. stereo systems (unless he meant MQA) Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Dutch said: Just bring in the guns and heavy artillery and settle this once and for all. ? you mean things that were invented and refined by objectivists??? Sal1950, esldude and crenca 1 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 your genuineness is showing lasker Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 58 minutes ago, Sal1950 said: ...kicking over some Christmas trees? ... all those opposed to pagans rituals should do that but if no one hears it on the internet... did it still happen? Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, Allan F said: Trust based on many years of experience and repeated critical listening has provided more than sufficient proof for many of us. Try that with your doctor Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Yes, its designed to bait you. Some folks just like starting arguments and slinging insults. A great case for extra moderation/moderators IMO. Irony meter pegged on ya wgscott and pkane2001 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, Allan F said: FWIW, Paul McGowan of PS Audio's viewpoint: How do designers know what to engineer if it cannot be measured? I think experience allows him to reduce the factor space he has to operate with to move towards a particular sonic goal. I see this in science (and engineering and math) all the time. You'll hear people say things like "nail down the boundary conditions" or "constrain the solution" etc. As you know, attorneys do a similar thing all the time too. esldude 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 52 minutes ago, wgscott said: I am beginning to think people keep arguing about this because nothing interesting has happened in this hobby (or whatever you want to call it) in a fairly long time. (MQA was a nice try, but ...) add Gallium - see what happens Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 To answer a question a few pages back... everything relating to the science of electronics is already known as far as audio goes That does not mean all technological implementations have been made, or that new materials or processing will not occur in the future. I started a thread 1-2 days ago for just this question. STC 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Maybe he has a "thing" for bikers? Sal1950 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Be glad you aren't taking on large corporations making toxic chemicals or the fossil fuels industries... crenca 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 There is also "What aboutism" and fits of rage. So that's 4... Oops! Didn't see the post just above - that adds "provide worthless 'evidence' in support" so now, we've got 5... Sal1950 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted January 2, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 2, 2019 Yes, that is completely correct. In fact, the English term "objectivist" is based on the ancient Sumerian cuneiform symbol for hearing loss. wgscott, esldude, mansr and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 11 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said: Last time I conducted a blind listening test with 4 USB cables, 2 people could name the cables 5 out of 5 times with random cable swapping. Even when I tried to trick them and kept the same cable in twice they knew I didn't swap it. what DAC & etc. did you use? or if you wrote it up, is there a link? Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Thx - I am always curious about USB details in the DAC Link to comment
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