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Objectivists/Subjectivists


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2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

I apologize if I misinterpreted your intentions, but on re-reading your words, I still get the same impression: 

objectivists have nothing better to do here but to attack subjectivists and to derail their threads. 

 

I think that you are reading way too much into what he has posted, and immediately gone on the defensive.

 An  Expectation Bias perhaps ? ¬¬

Not all Objectivists or Subjectivists are tarred with the same brush, neither do they all have rigid beliefs, with some having an interest in what they hear, as well as the measurements that may, or may not, confirm what they have heard.

 You fall into this group.

 The problem is when some take measurements as having complete precedence over listening,  and decide that those who disagree are in need of a reality check. They then go on a religious crusade to re-educate the people who disagree with them, quoting much earlier research in many cases as if the existing known Science is an absolute.

 Neither are they normally willing to try any suggestions or remedial products that others have found useful in their particular setup.

They simply dismiss them out of hand as worthless or Snake Oil products.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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11 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

And for @sandyk: it again bothers that me, myself and I (and Mani) were accused not to recognize canon balls from thunderstorms. No discussion which is what (singing saws) but *that* eager some people are (me).

Eh ... peace ?

Peter

 I don't know what the big deal is here.

 Peace for sure. Please check your emails

 

Regards

Alex

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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13 minutes ago, Shadders said:

As others have said, hifi is a religion, and we all know how that ends up with fanatics who believe.

 

AND fanatics that disbelieve.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

My experience: if the outcome of a blind test is contrary to the 'expected outcome', it's dismissed. It's that simple.

 

Our beliefs are deep-routed and not easily lodged, even (especially?) in the scientific field:

 

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

 

Mani.

 

Spot on !

Many E.E.s refuse to accept the results when they don't agree with those they expected, even when correctly performed by a well qualified Electronics Engineer.

 DBTs are only the " Gold Standard" when they confirm their own expectations.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

I wouldn't have believed it some years ago.  But like other scientists, I have an open mind

 

 

 You just made my day !

LOL.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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55 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I have a brilliant suggestion.

 

Lets all book a hotel conference room, turn up at the right date, and have hundreds of custard tarts, cream cakes, and trifles delivered, and see what happens.

 

I suggest a good cable discussion to initiate proceedings.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

You forgot the Pizza !

 I would suggest a good cable demonstration or even an MQA demonstration to really get things moving. 9_9

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The divide is mainly because the objectivists don't know how to measure what the subjectivists can hear …

 

 They don't always need to. All they need to do in some cases is employ the E.E.s so called " Gold Standard" DBTs , and if the differences are enough the Subjectivists will be able to demonstrate that they hear repeatable differences.

As an example, you could take 2 new Mac Minis having the same software, and play suitable material through both into a half decent system. Bill Scott will then of course verify that they do indeed sound identical.

Next, modify one of them to use an Uptone Linear PSU, and again play the same material through both machines to a captive audience from either Bill's or Ralf' s lecture classes using correct DBT techniques.

The only hard part about the exercise would be getting Bill to accept that the results of the DBTs that he implemented to approved E.E. standards weren't flawed  due to some oversight on his part, such as forgetting to use his own DIY Class D amplifier..:P

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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26 minutes ago, plissken said:

One DAC will have the 'HIGH END' usb cable and the other a 18" Belkin cable. Both must meet the ISO spec.

 

 Why not a 3M long Belkin USB cable. which after all complies with the USB specifications , and why not using an Audiophile Software player such as those from Miska, Peter or JRiver ?

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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2 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Do you know of any "significant audible changes" that cannot be measured?

 Depth of image is hard to measure and the illusion of HEIGHT which the better gear can also portray if present in the recordings  is probably damn  near impossible to measure using normal techniques.

 Even " The Storm" from the Chesky Surround recording can give a frighteningly real depiction of height with a very good amplifier such as  Pass 100W Class A monoblocks even when downconverted to Stereo.

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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2 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Peter, adultry [sic] hmm acting like adults for sure, not sure about adultery tho 9_9, maybe ?

 

Your lovely wife would kill you for even thinking about it ? O.o

 I hope that you are the one that feeds your big and VERY fast guard dog ! ;)

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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31 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

And next I would tell the community that putting a knot in the loudspeaker cable makes a difference for the better.

 

 Does getting your knickers in a knot make a difference for the better too ?9_9

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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46 minutes ago, hineni said:

If two different amplifiers have identical power output, frequency responses, distortion characteristics and reaction to load, do you think those two amplifiers will sound exactly the same? If not, exactly what mechanism do you propose to explain the difference in sound? 

 

 You neglected to mention channel separation among other things like Input impedance.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Because I don't need a 3M long cable. I use an 18 inch cable and it keeps things nice and tidy. I mentioned JRiver already along with Tidal.

 As is usually the case, you are trying to skew the results in your favour.>:(

Use a USB cable of a typical length that most other members would need to use. The vast majority of advertised USB cables appear to be around 1.8M in length, with many members needing to use longer than 1.8M

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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6 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

All that proves to me is with those particular tests he used, he obtained no change between cables with certain DAC’s. What those tests fail to prove is if those tests are all it takes to prove there’s no difference. 

 All this suggests is that a large percentage of C.A. members are using DACs with inferior USB implementation, even some of the very expensive DACs.

This is borne out by the size of the Cottage Industry devoted to supplying improved USB cables and other USB gadgets such as IsoRegens etc.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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6 minutes ago, esldude said:

I may have had an epiphany.

 

 I hope it didn't hurt too much !:)

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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42 minutes ago, plissken said:

Unfortunately you missed the point that I was making that you can get an 18" cable and I think most setups could accommodate that length. 

 I didn't miss the point. And I do not believe that most setups could accommodate  that length, especially from a rear USB port.

Cables from a front USB port generally look untidy as well.

 

As is usually the case, you are trying to skew the results in your favour.>:(

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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18 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Apparently you did miss the point. You can lead a horse to water but can't make him think.

 

 I never miss your points. They are always about showing just how clever you think you are and trying to put down Subjectivists, which is  very little different to those from Dennis and several other members from the hard line Objective side that I don't need to name.

The only thing that surprises me this time, is  that you haven't yet started to wave money around.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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27 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Evade or ignore. That's how they always respond to requests for evidence they're unable to supply.

 

Evade or ignore is what the C.A. Objective members do when evidence is made available to them as I did some months earlier with a package of several BluRay comparison discs and a USB memory stick that was sent to esldude.

 

Consider yourself ignored, just like you all ignore my supplied evidence !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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8 minutes ago, esldude said:

I do have the discs and memory sticks if anyone wishes to investigate.  I'll make them available to anyone wanting to try them with Alex's approval.  

 Dennis

 

 Did you say that you now have a new Laptop since your original brief look at the memory stick  ?

If so, you could try viewing with reduced ambient lighting in the room using battery operation.

 It still won't be anywhere near optimum like the way they were intended to be used though.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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4 minutes ago, esldude said:

Maybe you should get in touch with @plissken to see if he would arrange for you to hear that or not. 

 

 Music Enthusiast

 Forget Plissken . He is likely to throw in a couple of repeats etc. to confuse you.

 These tests are hard enough without that unless you are a professional used to performing DBTs

 Do any tests using your OWN system that you are used to, under non sighted conditions with others controlling the switching.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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26 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I have real problem with what you have written here. In both cases there has been no "official report" on either why the plane crashed or why the building has cracked.

 We should find out soon enough after the NSW Government issues the report on the building investigations.

 Nowhere have I suggested that all Engineers are incompetent, however several here seem to think that they are infallible in engineering matters.

They aren't. They are human like the rest of us, and occasionally make errors too.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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