Objectivists/Subjectivists

[PeterSt]

OK. As long as the auto-correction does not know of the word "objectivist", you objectivists do not exist.

Too bad.

 

I'll be back later to check for a status change.

[PeterSt]

Just now, crenca said:

So why do we have a call, mostly by "subjectivists", for moderation and enforced civility?

 

What do you think ?

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Because exponents of irrational belief

 

eh

[PeterSt]

Just now, lasker98 said:

as opposed to "I haven't heard it, but it isn't so".

 

But wasn't it so that the objectivists (I still regard myself to be one) don't need to listen because they have shown to themselves it isn't so anyway ?

 

The problem I seem to have is that I don't need to listen because what you say is true anyway. As long as you listen.

/// says the other type of objectivist ///

 

The sheer FACT that my system (and that of so many customers) improves on a monthly basis, springs from believing what OTHERS have to say from listening.

Yes, I said FACT. Prove me wrong. 

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, NOMBEDES said:

how can we correlate measurements and sound quality with so many variables?  

 

By giving everybody the same and observe the results. Note them. Remember them.

That's science too, you know.

But somehow the objectivists never ever anywhere turn up as participants. Never. Also a FACT.

[PeterSt]

28 minutes ago, crenca said:

I "try" things all the time, subjectively, but I dont' report on it because I know its not very useful.

 

You really believe that, do you ?

[PeterSt]

16 minutes ago, mansr said:

Perhaps that is because once a few measurements have been taken, little remains to be discussed.

 

Except for the measurements.

[PeterSt]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

Show me the change in the output signal I'll give it more credence.

 

Hearing aids.

[PeterSt]

Just now, PeterSt said:

Hearing aids.

 

I must retreat that.

You just don't try, instead. Still you propose an opinion.

 

Plus you anticipate we dig that.

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, esldude said:

On another forum is a fair discussion about speaker distortion. That's an area that really matters and you don't need any special sauce to make it interesting.

 

OK, your speakers distort too much, yet, so you can't try anything else yet.

I get it.

 

Dedain (me).

[PeterSt]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

BTW, yeah I've tested myself on echoic memory.  The difference in quick switching 10second segments and 30 second segments is huge. Yet so many insist only long term listening works.

 

Dennis, I don't get it. So long term listening unveils even more difference ?

 

I am saying this because it is the only thing which works for me. Like 5 days (unless it fails right away or at the same day).

 

Quick switching never can work because what's heard in one will be heard forever in the other.

 

OK, I guess this is off topic. But my first "normal" response to an evenly normal post. I hope.

 

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Man, if only speakers were all that mattered ...

 

And a strange thing again: speakers would be my last worry. Seriously.

So what's happening ? (actually responding to Dennis again)

[PeterSt]

22 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Also poor correlation to hearing tests.

 

In all honesty ... can someone show me measurements which show better on the figures but sound worse ?

Small bet: No.

Unless, of course, the measurements are so way off that nothing can be made of them to begin with.

 

So the other odd thing: people keep on talking about measurements ... but where are they ?

 

PS: Null tests ending at whatever -dB don't count because the whatever -dB is subjective to the tester to begin with. Prejudiced (wherever that came from).

-> Oh, I know, we can't perceive a -120dB signal. Bwehhhhhh. Solves all !

 

But nothing.

[PeterSt]

Just now, PeterSt said:

Solves all !

 

Unless, of course, we know in advance it is MQA'd. Then it is clearly audible.

[PeterSt]

Just now, marce said:

Yet it's through those measurements and development over the years that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

 

Show me please.

I'm only asking because I can't.

 

And don't give me the "because there is no audible difference", please.

 

Repeat: music reproduction keeps on improving over here, but not because by measurement. Indirectly yes, but means of using better (by some instance) measured components we now use. So in the end we talk about the same. But not that we agree (I think).

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, marce said:

that we now have the music reproductions equipment we have today... 

 

Let me put it differently ... where are the improved audio measurement analysers since 10 years or so ?

Replay is at an astonishing 32/786 at unmeasurable THD etc. levels.

 

Eh, what did I say ? 

[PeterSt]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

OK, Peter, demonstrate that you can hear a -120dB signal

 

See ?

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

So no sale?

 

No sale. But I have an other proposition.

[PeterSt]

Just read that briefly, please.

 

Dirk is my sheer reference for the only single person returning a Lush^2 because it id not work out. Wait, it sounded worse in his system. Ha, victory still, because it apparently made a difference. Expectation bias ? (I can easily unveil this because Dirk did so himself in the Lush^2 thread).

No. Dirk insisted to exchange for a new one, because he could measure an anomaly (multi meter, resistant-wise). I refused but instead I just sent Dirk a new one so he could compare infinitely with my hint it wouldn't make a different SQ wise. Upside down placebo.

Results ? tadaaa .... (drum roll)

Dirk now returned both for the price of one.

 

What am I saying ?

 

Paul, if you are sent one for free and if you dare to hear no difference with any random setting (and otherwise a few prescribed ones) then you are so down the drain of credit ... unbelievable. And this is the point: you would be the first one of objectivists (count me out) taking up that glove. But for free eh ...

So now you can choose to reject, pick it up and hear the clear differences all over the place putting YOU up to the task of proof in measurement (pick your tripod machines) or ... be the first one anywhere not to be able to hear.

Whoa, I most certainly would not pick the latter. I'd better also not reject. Thus ... have fun.

Address please plus required cable length (PM allowed).

 

PS: Someone help me out, please. What would be better ... keep it for free when Paul likes it for the better, or keep it only when it is normally paid for. I vote for the former. But a storm of protest because of illegal influence may roll over ...

 

And Paul, I have no mean intentions. If I may say ... you could be the only one rightfully question what is to be questioned (of that other camp I regard myself to be in as well ).

[PeterSt]

26 minutes ago, esldude said:

After you exceed echoic memory the direct perception is no longer available to you.

 

I understand. But what about the annoyance factor ? I mean, if you really are put up the task of surviving with the worst "config" (haha) ever, you'd know, would you ? that is my 5 days (or even linger these days) story.

 

Or maybe you recall  @Jud's test. I was the only one (or the best of it) that could dig out whatever it was guitar comparisons (I really forgot). One thing I will not forget: it was under a cookers hoover (hood) of more than 70dB of noise, the test music playing at ~85dB 6 meters further in the room. Key: unconsciousness. And I did that on purpose.

There have been more of these contests (Julf's Redbook vs Hires) ... I always "win" them.

How ?

Don't pay attention but observe annoyance. 

This actually can't be done with short term A-B. 5 days ? easily.

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

That of course was the reason for my "two guitars" test

 

Wow. I hope people can see that I can't have responded to this within 2 minutes of time. So this cross posted and is really what I was referring to.

But Jud too ...

[PeterSt]

8 minutes ago, Jud said:

That of course was the reason for my "two guitars" test, in which participants were asked

 

So Yes. But a test I (thus) always highly reject to because I can't do that (in my own perception); It is too much explicit and too much A-B.

Still, when I am over here with an auditioner (you know, those for 1 hour which becomes 4) then the A-B surely happens, but I think that adrenaline or something takes over and I can do it after all. There has been no instance that we both would not agree (and "we both" is me and dozens, individually).

 

Jud, it can't be about patterns (for the long term) because I don't even compare with the same music/albums. It's just the general perception (and annoyance factor, or "hip-hop" factor for that matter).

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

Sorry, Peter,

 

So I forgot really (we had something with a Beatles album as well). One thing I will never forget: I like such tests if I can find the time (that's why the during cooking happens in the first place). @manisandherno different (who could be record holder in creating such tests).

This is why it all the more bothers that "we" are accused of derailing a thread about such a test. Never (and I also see no others doing that).

 

And for @sandyk: it again bothers that me, myself and I (and Mani) were accused not to recognize canon balls from thunderstorms. No discussion which is what (singing saws) but *that* eager some people are (me).

Eh ... peace ?

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

else how would you get the feeling you ought to go with one choice rather than another?

 

Pain ?

Please keep in mind how loud I play. If it sustains throughout (including dinner still being prepared instead of the other half jumping out to the takeaway) then all is fine.

So it is a quite physical thing. Physiological maybe - and with that, mood influencing.

 

But of course this can't be about A-B. Just playing music.

 

Something else: without physical pain, all can sound the same and boring throughout. That hurts too (physiologically). So it is all not so easy ...

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

Yes. What I'm saying is that there is a pattern that is or isn't being matched which causes this strong emotional/physical response.

 

Agreed. A seemingly (is it ?) contradictory response: For me it is completely impossible to use music as a counterweight for a fight (bad mood). All what happens after 30 minutes of trying is that I shut down the music for the day.

Happened at Christmas day when we couldn't find consensus about what course of the meal should contain which (and we ended up without a main course - hahaha).

Luckily over here we have to days of Christmas (and gain weight after all).

 

Moral: For me, music can boost adrenaline, unsurpassed (like tonight, postponing dinner-ready to after 11pm), but it can't recover from the opposite. And merely: music sounds super bad in such situation.

 

So Yes, no wonder how studies and scientists and objectivists (still underlined in red) will most easily refer to this drastically endorsing exhibit of ... the subject at hand. Still there is relativeness to the same mood, same light, same wine, same woman and same prospect food ... the music being in the lead. I mean, the quality of it.