Objectivists/Subjectivists

[Allan F]

10 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

This is the classic" the emperor has no clothes" scenario.

 

And others might suggest that the above is a "classic" case of a post that adds nothing of any substance to the discussion.

[Allan F]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

But yes, folks often do respond to reports of measurements with some version of "Unless you've heard it yourself, it ain't valid." 

 

True. Measurements are purely objective and cannot be challenged if done correctly. That is a fact. But that does not address the relationship between measurements and sound quality or the extent to which measurements tell the whole story. Consequently, measurements do not necessarily refute reported experiences of repeatedly hearing differences, notwithstanding the absence of measurable differences according to current standards. IMO, this is the divide between objectivists and subjectivists that cannot presently be bridged.

[Allan F]

8 hours ago, Jud said:

For myself, I reach a point very quickly where I've said what I had to say, and if folks want to listen to someone else I consider puddingheaded, then as people with my upbringing used to say, (Yiddish accent) "They should live and be well." (/Yiddish accent)

 

As in gey gezunterheyt?

[Allan F]

8 hours ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I have a brilliant suggestion.

 

Lets all book a hotel conference room, turn up at the right date, and have hundreds of custard tarts, cream cakes, and trifles delivered, and see what happens.

 

I suggest a good cable discussion to initiate proceedings.

 

You are probably going to get objections from people demanding organic or vegan offerings to throw instead.

[Allan F]

12 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I think Bruce may have summed up the Objectivist/Subjectivist debate. He must be an Audiophile....

 

"Depends on what you look at obviously

But even more it depends on the way that you see"

 

Bob Dylan may have captured the divide between the two groups with imagery in Positively 4th Street:

 

I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment I could be you
Yes, I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes
Then you'd know what a drag it is to see you

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

If I am wrong about this I ask @The Computer Audiophile to let me know and I will immediately quit CA never to return.

 

Be careful what you wish for! (just kidding )

[Allan F]

40 minutes ago, plissken said:

I find that subjectivists simply trust, objectivists verify.

 

Trust based on many years of experience and repeated critical listening has provided more than sufficient proof for many of us. We have neither the need nor the desire to "verify" in order to satisfy you or anyone else. We would rather spend the time enjoying music.

[Allan F]

20 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Do you know of any "significant audible changes" that cannot be measured?

 

FWIW, Paul McGowan of PS Audio's viewpoint: How do designers know what to engineer if it cannot be measured?

[Allan F]

7 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Peter, adultry [sic] hmm acting like adults for sure, not sure about adultery tho , maybe ?

 

Adultery is the epitome of subjectively experiencing changes.

[Allan F]

3 hours ago, diecaster said:

If the forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter how illogical, we, as a group, lose all credibility as audio enthusiasts. If our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, what good are they? If you say all opinions and positions posted here are valid no matter what, the opinions and positions posted here cannot be trusted to contain real and useful information.

 

The problem with the above is that the underlying premise is flawed. No one is suggesting that all "forum members accept all subjective opinions, no matter what" and no one is saying that "all opinions and positions here are valid no matter what". As to the question of "what good are they?" if our positions and opinions cannot withstand inquiry, that begs the question of what one is looking to gain from the forum.

 

Many of us are interested in the subjective experiences/opinions of others as a basis for considering what we may want to try to improve our own systems. Withstanding objective inquiry simply plays little or no role in this context, notwithstanding the importance of such inquiries to skeptics. Over time, individuals learn from experience whose opinions they can trust as credible.

[Allan F]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Are we that old already ?

 

Give us a break, Peter! Some of us are a lot older than 60. Ageism has no place on CA.

[Allan F]

9 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

There's not much for new blood between 30 and 50 taking up this hobby to the level they desire to participate in forums. It's mostly the same group who's been around from day 1 of audio forums going around in circles with the same arguments they were having from their 1st day. Never learning a thing, only riding the merry-go-round. 

 

Quote

Do you mean balanced viewpoint, and understanding that the world isn't just black or white? Is that allowed? Or is it against the terms and conditions of the forum? 

 

Just what the forum needs. A newbie with a really positive and uplifting attitude!

[Allan F]

4 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

I smell ostracism coming my way! Bring out the pitchforks and torches men!

Don't flatter yourself! Pitchforks and torches require a lot of expense and effort.

[Allan F]

4 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Ahh so the good old lets all PM each other and come up with a plan on how we can whine to the moderators and waste their time? 

Or maybe there should be a rule that newbies have a probationary period during which negativity is not tolerated.

[Allan F]

5 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

No negativity here. Just stating facts about audio forum demographics. And the constant bickering that takes place from this demographic involved in this hobby. Facts cannot be either positive or negative. Positivity or negativity felt from hearing facts are only a fabrication made in the mind of the reader. If one cannot read about facts without triggering a negative emotional response, the internet isn't for them. 

Thank you for proving my point. Dwelling on the negative aspects of anything is negativity, regardless of whether it is factually based. Good night.

[Allan F]

24 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

Read his article. 

Read his post again, slowly, and you may get it.

I'll give you a hint: ...a USB cable connected...and one that isn't

[Allan F]

31 minutes ago, crenca said:

In my opinion and using diecasters continuum, this assertion is on the extreme - its like a magnet that is all the way on the subjectivist side that tries to pull everything in that direction.  

 

And IMO your assertions tend to the opposite extreme, magnet or no magnet, but usually with attitude. Does it really upset you as much as your posts suggest? (rhetorical)

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

If any part of the system which is consumer exchangeable makes a significant difference to the sound then it means the robustness of the setup is poor - it's fragile to variations in the environment, which means that what you experience at any time is dependent on many "wrong things".

 

Many will say that the opposite is true, e.g. if you make significant changes to the source components of your system and there is no difference to the sound, your system lacks transparency.

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 All this suggests is that a large percentage of C.A. members are using DACs with inferior USB implementation, even some of the very expensive DACs.

This is borne out by the size of the Cottage Industry devoted to supplying improved USB cables and other USB gadgets such as IsoRegens etc.

 

Why don't we just admit it, Alex. It's all in our minds. Any differences that we hear repeatedly can only be the product of expectation bias or some similar phenomenon, regardless of the fact that we have no idea at the outset whether a new USB cable will sound better, worse, or the same as one with which we have become extremely familiar over time. Our experience gained from decades of critical listening means nothing, apart from giving us a false and unsupportable belief that any differences we hear are real. I hope this will make the objectivists in our community feel better.

 

Happy New Year!

[Allan F]

25 minutes ago, esldude said:

I may have had an epiphany.  Qualified EE means either Eyes and Ears or maybe Eyes Engaged.?

Or maybe EE stands for Eccentric Epiphany.

[Allan F]

20 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Quote

Yes but he does make recommendations...

"Should you run and buy these short cables/adapters? No your shouldn't."

But he didn’t say that you shouldn’t walk and buy it, now did he?

 

Groan....You really should be ashamed of yourself!

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

There's a trick to it ST. When the music is playing the soundstage obviously varies, the sax is there and then gone, there, gone. You have to pause the music and then measure when everything is nice and still 🤣

 

If you used a laser distance measurer, would that work fast enough so that a pause would not be necessary?