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Objectivists/Subjectivists


89reksal

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56 minutes ago, wgscott said:
1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

...now who would have thought a thread entitled "Objectivists/Subjectivists" could end this way.....

 

 

"So many roads to choose
We'll start out walkin' and learn to run
(And yes, we've just begun)"

 

Trouble is the Objectivist/Subjectivist road is certain.

 

"There's roads and there's roads
And they call, can't you hear it?
Roads of the earth
And roads of the spirit
The best roads of all
Are the ones that aren't certain
One of those is where you'll find me
Till they drop the big curtain"

 

 

 

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

"So many roads to choose
We'll start out walkin' and learn to run
(And yes, we've just begun)"

 

Trouble is the Objectivist/Subjectivist road is certain.

 

"There's roads and there's roads
And they call, can't you hear it?
Roads of the earth
And roads of the spirit
The best roads of all
Are the ones that aren't certain
One of those is where you'll find me
Till they drop the big curtain"

 

 

I think Bruce may have summed up the Objectivist/Subjectivist debate. He must be an Audiophile....

 

"Depends on what you look at obviously

But even more it depends on the way that you see"

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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14 hours ago, crenca said:

As an Audiophile subjectivist however, your result is evidence of the validity of subjectivism.

 

57 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

14 hours ago, crenca said:

Your [sic] ill equipped to do the hard work (both thought and practical) to investigate the "why" of these results.

 

Where's your evidence for this claim?

 

Mani, this is nothing more than a baseless personal attack on yourself. he talks a lot of evidence which I predict he will not deliver, instead pressing his views on 'world order' and audiophiledom.....

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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5 minutes ago, mansr said:

How are they supposed to do this if only one kind of reply is permitted?

 

Who said only one kind of reply is permitted?

 

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

Perhaps not, but people asking for advice in improving their sound on a budget of $1000 or so are regularly told to spend the bulk of it on exotic power cables, fuses, or other dubious pursuits. That's not what I consider helpful. Even if those items do make a difference, surely you agree they should not be the top priority.

 

With great respect to CC it doesn't matter what he thinks is top priority. What matters is what you think is top priority expressed in a way consistent with the rules and hopefully IMO with all of us , me included, trying not to offend.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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10 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Who said only one kind of reply is permitted?

9 hours ago, mansr said:

You, for instance.

 

 

IMO mischievous mis-characterisation on your part. The "one reply" that I have advocated, and I believe that I am totally in keeping with @The Computer Audiophile with this "one reply" policy - is for a little civility, respect, and consideration shown for others. before the avalanche of "yes buts", those terms are as interpreted and as would be enforced by @The Computer Audiophile as is "act like an adult".

 

If I am wrong about this I ask @The Computer Audiophile to let me know and I will immediately quit CA never to return.

 

I seek all opinions and try and maintain a scientific indifference to the outcome not a doctrinaire and slavish adherence to one audio faction .

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The heavy handed application of "attitude" is what disturbs many ... like in a post just above, "(forums) dedicated to group stroking of delusional hearing."

 

Yes, its designed to bait you. Some folks just like starting arguments and slinging insults. A great case for extra moderation/moderators IMO.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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11 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Those who it is about ask for "education" of some sort and that won't happen easily in the way it currently goes. Or maybe it *is* possible but then there's more adultry (?) required from us than the age we bear.

 

Peter, adultry [sic] hmm acting like adults for sure, not sure about adultery tho 9_9, maybe ?

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The key one I'm interested in is the aural disappearance of the speakers - this is so abrupt in the transition, because it is subjective to its core. But it would be relatively easy to 'measure' with respect to the listener - simply hide the true location of the speaker, behind a curtain, say - and ask the audience to point to where they think the speaker is. Measuring what is is so significant in the SQ to make this happen, OTOH, would be the really hard bit!

 

I would use demonstrate it rather than measure.

 

I believe most things will eventually be measurable with better tests and tools and implementations - that causally relate to a perceptual experience as shared by most of us.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

If I say something like the below statement, does this make me an objectivist, or a bad subjectivist? 

 

"But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles." 

 

Expectation bias applies to us all. The quoted statement has an undercurrent of sarcasm suggesting its anti subjectivist.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Okay here's the entire statement including the first half:

 

"I happen to own a streamer with a fibre optic Ethernet input. And I can't for the life of me hear a single bit of difference between any components I swap upstream of the streamer. Switches, servers, you name it. And it's not because I'm hard of hearing. I could clearly hear the difference between switches, servers, and the supplies that power them when I used to use a streamer that has copper Ethernet inputs. 

 

And I can imagine the fibre implementation on the Opticalrendu is at least as good. The only thing I can see affecting a setup with an opticalRendu is the supply powering it, and the miniGBIC module.Well that and if it's receiving enough throughput from the network setup. If not dropouts will be experienced.

 

 But of course let's not rule out expectation bias. That can make for real differences in the active mind of an audiophile. When they give placebo's to patients in hospitals, the list of side effects is no shorter than is experienced with actual medications. So take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon isn't something only limited to audiophiles."

 

Is the person who said this an objectivist, or subjectivist?

 

 

 

 

 Well, sounds like he/she is wrestling with the results. My guess someone with a foot in both camps and trying to reconcile same. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Thomas savage said:

Having been on both sides or at least observed  both side of this rather ridiculous self imposed division Iv come to this conclusion..

 

the Internet fosters dual narratives / binary debate that otherwise might not take hold so vigorously otherwise. You can see this base reactionary dynamic all over the Internet, people have been given a voice online and simply get very used to secluding that voice from questioning forces. On audiophile forums this tends to mean two groups of self affirming people’s.

 

You have those that want to express their listening thoughts unencumbered by challenging voices, they might want to make up their own logic mechanisms to ratify their experiences . I see this as a kind of creative almost artist undertaking where people can just express themselves without let or hinderance.  This wave of freedom is seductive and many will defend it even when this might push the debate to quite fantastical areas of complete nonsense that they otherwise would never do. Through protecting this new license they often can become uncharacteristicly illogical.  The defence of this ‘free thought’ tends to mean disregarding and mistrusting knowledge as “how can it be true when my intuition and listening experience say to me it’s not”..  this path is the easiest place to walk, Iv done it and it’s great. It’s a fantastic self affirming bubble that requires no entrance exam or effort and buys you into the audiophile club as your fellow audiophile will gain mutual affirmation from you so your very welcome. I think it’s call enabling. 

 

 

Then theres these really annoying people that come along just as your in mid flow describing how you’re so happy with your new power conditioner and just how it all works in your mind and how this is all backed up by your listening impressions they come along quite uninvited and start telling you your wrong .  This is unpleasant, generally though it’s ok as your online buddies will back you up and chase them away. Hopefully to hydrogen audio , like who wants to go to that den of kill joys anyway.  Meanwhile your left knowing somewhere your lacking in real knowledge but who wants to admit that anyway, it’s probably the case Science is yet to understand hearing and your ideas are just as valid as theirs .. 

 

we have a break down , a breakdown in the respect for knowledge and a breakdown in communication as being online we are missing many facets involved in real world interactions and we live in a bizarre world where traditional pillars of knowledge compete with the self affirmed on the Internet. It’s all a bit of a mess. 

 

What we need is both sides ( just playing along with the self imposed definitions here) to make room for that feeling they get when they get irked out of their comfort zone and try and drop the typical defensive reactions that cause all this tension . The objectivists need to stop assuming everyone needs to know they are wrong and feel it’s their duty to take it on themselves to say so at every opportunity.  In turn the so called subjectivist need to make room for that fact they might be ignorant and instead of taking offence look at itvas a opportunity to explore another way and maybe go and see if there’s something to what these grumpy guys are say. 

 

Not all objectivists are wise, many are just as guilty of ignorance as anyone else but ime they are more willing to face that ignorance down and be challenged in a respectful and civilised manner.

 

please try and coexist here at computer audiophile, cut each other some room it’s not like anyone’s stealing your Mrs it’s just a Audio forum . If you don’t manage this the hobby and to a degree all of you will be poorer for it.

 

Well done if you got through all that ha ha and if you did thanks for reading .   

 

 

 

Nice post

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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