Sonore opticalRendu

[Music Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, Dutch said:

 

Well that would really be golden and could make Sonore’s optical to ethernet converter a great recipe to focus just on the renderer connecting to the DAC/DDC (and forget anything upstream). And of course when people like the sound of the OpticalRendu they would also no longer have to ‘worry’ about the chain that’s “upstream” of it.

 

People have reported that off the shelf FMC’s (eg. a TP-Link MC220L) do not yet accomplish this. I myself currently have two sets of TP-Link MC220L Gigabit Ethernet Media Converters with Cisco GLC-SX-MM Mini GBIC's and 20m LC-LC OM3 multi mode fiber optic cables to isolate my audio system from the rest of my network. Romaz’s suggested direct connection between music server and renderer (see the “novel way to massively ...’ thread) was and is clearly better. Still can’t explain why. In such a setup Uptone’s etherregen would find a great home.

 

We’ll have to wait and see what happens/which consensus forms when these devices are available and out in the wild and people start experimenting with them, revisiting older setups where they used to have an off the shelve FMC etc.

 

Exciting times, again, with Sonore and Uptone Audio both releasing their first active ethernet products!

I can't see how it's possible that a fancy switch could make a difference with the OpticalRendu. People need to be very careful when they think they can hear a difference. And not report publicly that they hear a difference from placebo effects. 

 

One time a friend of mine bought a new DAC to use with his SACD player. After a few days with it, he called me up raving about how many veils were lifted, how the macrodynamics and bass was so much better etc. When I finally made it over to check it out, I had a look at the setup and noticed his preamp was still set on the analog input which still had the analog RCA's coming from his SACD player connected. He did connect the digital coaxial cable between the DAC and SACD player, but he forgot to switch the input to the input the new DAC was connected to. I asked him if this is how it's been setup the whole time. He said I haven't touched it since initial setup. 

 

I learn't a valuable lesson that day. 

[barrows]

Hurray for a return to sanity!  Now we can concentrate with things which make really big differences in sonics, like loudspeakers, and forget about random commercial computer gear upstream from an optical Rendu!

[Albrecht]

3 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

I can't see how it's possible that a fancy switch could make a difference with the OpticalRendu. People need to be very careful when they think they can hear a difference. And not report publicly that they hear a difference from placebo effects. 

 

One time a friend of mine bought a new DAC to use with his SACD player. After a few days with it, he called me up raving about how many veils were lifted, how the macrodynamics and bass was so much better etc. When I finally made it over to check it out, I had a look at the setup and noticed his preamp was still set on the analog input which still had the analog RCA's coming from his SACD player connected. He did connect the digital coaxial cable between the DAC and SACD player, but he forgot to switch the input to the input the new DAC was connected to. I asked him if this is how it's been setup the whole time. He said I haven't touched it since initial setup. 

 

I learn't a valuable lesson that day. 

Hello,

I have been running fiber for a couple of years now with FMCs that have two wall-wart LPSs. I definitely heard a difference between Fiber vs 4 different CAT8, & CAT7 RJ45 ethernet cables. I also heard a difference between a $50 iFI SMPS power supply to my RACK FMC and the $11 LPS that I'm currently using. I haven't tried a 35ft AudioQuest, Synergistic, or Cardas, ethernet cable. But I can say that a 1.5m AudioQuest cinnamon from the FMC to the ultraRendu has made a significantly audible improvement over a standard Vandersil CAT8, a Belkin based blue jeans, & a Supra CAT7.

 

We all have different systems with different capabilities and different levels of resolution. (Not to mention different quality AC). How a Fiber system may or may not isolate out electrical noise over layer 3 networks and have an affect on what is heard out of the speakers can and will vary.

Before you offer up speculation based outside direct experience, - I recommend doing some more listening......

 

My total fiber system cost me less than $100. Finally, (as John explained), there are more differences to the opticalRendu than just a Fiber NIC/SFP module.

Cheers,

 

[diecaster]

I just wish there were an opticalRendu with I2S out instead of USB. I’d buy one in a heartbeat. 

[vortecjr]

36 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hello,

I have been running fiber for a couple of years now with FMCs that have two wall-wart LPSs. I definitely heard a difference between Fiber vs 4 different CAT8, & CAT7 RJ45 ethernet cables. I also heard a difference between a $50 iFI SMPS power supply to my RACK FMC and the $11 LPS that I'm currently using. I haven't tried a 35ft AudioQuest, Synergistic, or Cardas, ethernet cable. But I can say that a 1.5m AudioQuest cinnamon from the FMC to the ultraRendu has made a significantly audible improvement over a standard Vandersil CAT8, a Belkin based blue jeans, & a Supra CAT7.

 

We all have different systems with different capabilities and different levels of resolution. (Not to mention different quality AC). How a Fiber system may or may not isolate out electrical noise over layer 3 networks and have an affect on what is heard out of the speakers can and will vary.

Before you offer up speculation based outside direct experience, - I recommend doing some more listening......

 

My total fiber system cost me less than $100. Finally, (as John explained), there are more differences to the opticalRendu than just a Fiber NIC/SFP module.

Cheers,

 

No worries...people will always have different experiences.

[Music Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

Hello,

I have been running fiber for a couple of years now with FMCs that have two wall-wart LPSs. I definitely heard a difference between Fiber vs 4 different CAT8, & CAT7 RJ45 ethernet cables. I also heard a difference between a $50 iFI SMPS power supply to my RACK FMC and the $11 LPS that I'm currently using. I haven't tried a 35ft AudioQuest, Synergistic, or Cardas, ethernet cable. But I can say that a 1.5m AudioQuest cinnamon from the FMC to the ultraRendu has made a significantly audible improvement over a standard Vandersil CAT8, a Belkin based blue jeans, & a Supra CAT7.

 

We all have different systems with different capabilities and different levels of resolution. (Not to mention different quality AC). How a Fiber system may or may not isolate out electrical noise over layer 3 networks and have an affect on what is heard out of the speakers can and will vary.

Before you offer up speculation based outside direct experience, - I recommend doing some more listening......

 

My total fiber system cost me less than $100. Finally, (as John explained), there are more differences to the opticalRendu than just a Fiber NIC/SFP module.

Cheers,

 

I think there’s a bit of misunderstanding about how the setup you had is different than how a setup with the OpticalRendu will be. There will be no copper cable between the FMC, switch with fibre port, or special Sonore FMC. Only an optical cable. This cable provides total isolation between the OpticalRendu and the FMC, switch with optical port, or special Sonore FMC. Therefor nothing before this final run of optical cable will have any influence on the sound. 

 

In your use case you had a copper cable between the FMC and streamer. This opens up the possibility of noise conducting through the copper cable to the streamer. Also opens up the possibility of different Ethernet cables affecting the sound Signature. 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

How a Fiber system may or may not isolate out electrical noise over layer 3 networks and have an affect on what is heard out of the speakers can and will vary

My understanding is that the above is patently false: optical cable cannot pass ANY noise, neither can it radiate noise, and neither can it pick up noise.  Now the downstream FMC can be a noise source, of course, hence the advantage to eliminating it via the optical Rendu.

[barrows]

1 hour ago, diecaster said:

I just wish there were an opticalRendu with I2S out instead of USB. I’d buy one in a heartbeat. 

That is what the ultraDigital is for.  Adding I2S/SPDIF to any of the Rendu Series would add the same cost.  I know, it is another box, but this approach is ideal as it allows for a dedicated power supply for the (isolated) SPDIF/I2S circuitry.

[diecaster]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

That is what the ultraDigital is for.  Adding I2S/SPDIF to any of the Rendu Series would add the same cost.  I know, it is another box, but this approach is ideal as it allows for a dedicated power supply for the (isolated) SPDIF/I2S circuitry.

 

But the USB circuitry after the optical input of the opticalRendu just adds exactly what  we are trying to get rid of. Adding the extra circuits an power supply cannot be considered a good thing here. 

[Music Enthusiast]

Just now, diecaster said:

 

But the USB circuitry after the optical input of the opticalRendu just adds exactly what  we are trying to get rid of. Adding the extra circuits an power supply cannot be considered a good thing here. 

The purpose of the optical setup here is to isolate noise upstream of the OpticalRendu. The ultra low noise design of the OpticalRendu’s internal circuitry is designed to prevent any noise from travelling down the USB cable. 

[barrows]

3 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

But the USB circuitry after the optical input of the opticalRendu just adds exactly what  we are trying to get rid of. Adding the extra circuits an power supply cannot be considered a good thing here. 

I do not find this to be the case.  There is nothing wrong with USB audio.  Additionally, the ultra Digital has another layer of isolation between the USB side and the SPDIF/I2S output.  Whether this is done in one box or two, you still need an additional power supply to make an isolated SPDIF/I2S output work.

 

Personally, I would prefer to use USB with a DAC which has a good USB input, as USB is technically superior to both SPDIF and I2S (being asynchronous and allowing for the DAC clock as master).  But I do understand that some DACs have poor USB inputs.

[Albrecht]

23 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

I think there’s a bit of misunderstanding about how the setup you had is different than how a setup with the OpticalRendu will be. There will be no copper cable between the FMC, switch with fibre port, or special Sonore FMC. Only an optical cable. This cable provides total isolation between the OpticalRendu and the FMC, switch with optical port, or special Sonore FMC. Therefor nothing before this final run of optical cable will have any influence on the sound. 

 

In your use case you had a copper cable between the FMC and streamer. This opens up the possibility of noise conducting through the copper cable to the streamer. Also opens up the possibility of different Ethernet cables affecting the sound Signature. 

Yes, - you are correct about the possibility of noise between the final FMC and the streamer. You are correct about that for sure. I do understand quite well that there will be no FMC and therefore no possibility of noise....

[Music Enthusiast]

Just now, Albrecht said:

Yes, - you are correct about the possibility of noise between the final FMC and the streamer. You are correct about that for sure. I do understand quite well that there will be no FMC and therefore no possibility of noise....

Okay then you understand that your experience with your setup is something that will no longer apply with this setup. You can eliminate far more money worth of cables, power supplies, and low noise servers to buy a couple OpticalRendu’s, and still get better performance. 

[Albrecht]

24 minutes ago, barrows said:

My understanding is that the above is patently false: optical cable cannot pass ANY noise, neither can it radiate noise, and neither can it pick up noise.  Now the downstream FMC can be a noise source, of course, hence the advantage to eliminating it via the optical Rendu.

Hi, - correct. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Also, - it might be possible for a SMPS on the FMC to introduce AC noise, which may or may not make it's way into the house AC and possibly into the system.  Thanks for clarifying

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Okay then you understand that your experience with your setup is something that will no longer apply with this setup. You can eliminate far more money worth of cables, power supplies, and low noise servers to buy a couple OpticalRendu’s, and still get better performance. 

Hi,

Of course. In my case, - it was less than $120 with both FMCs, Fiber cable, and their linear power supplies.... Right off the bat one can eliminate 1 RJ45 ethernet, and 1 FMC and it's power supply. In my case, - I'll need another fiber cable that is SC to LC as I understand it.

Considering also that there's a bit more to the opticalRendu than just the Fiber NIC, - this is something that I'm really looking forward to.

Cheers,

 

[barrows]

2 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hi, - correct. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Also, - it might be possible for a SMPS on the FMC to introduce AC noise, which may or may not make it's way into the house AC and possibly into the system.  Thanks for clarifying

Agreed, but; if all the gear powered by the cheap SMPS is placed far from the audio system (and preferably on the other phase of the homes AC wiring) one does achieve a great degree of isolation of that noise from the audio system, just by the length of wire.  Wire runs of 30'+ add enough resistance and capacitance to filter out a lot of high frequency noise on their own.

I would be much more concerned about my high power general appliances like washing machines, dishwashers, and refrigerators adding noise to the AC supply than a few low power SMPS with 30' or more of wiring between them and the audio system.  Although I would still ground those supplies for good measure since it is so easy to do.

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

Agreed, but; if all the gear powered by the cheap SMPS is placed far from the audio system (and preferably on the other phase of the homes AC wiring) one does achieve a great degree of isolation of that noise from the audio system, just by the length of wire.  Wire runs of 30'+ add enough resistance and capacitance to filter out a lot of high frequency noise on their own.

I would be much more concerned about my high power general appliances like washing machines, dishwashers, and refrigerators adding noise to the AC supply than a few low power SMPS with 30' or more of wiring between them and the audio system.  Although I would still ground those supplies for good measure since it is so easy to do.

Hi,

Yes. But a typical FMC has a 9v or 12v SMPS that comes with it and the FMC "receiver" power supply is usually plugged into the same AC 10 or 15 (or if you're lucky 20a circuit) from the mains box, (not a circuit from another part of the house that also isn't isolated). This cheap FMC SMPS "may" cause some noise to go back into that circuit, especially since one might have others for their TVs, cableTV boxes, etc.  I have 8 PSUs right now, - 5 of which are LPSs, - and 2 I can't do anything about. Of course you're right about big appliances like refrigerators and Laundry machines, sending noise back...

But, - everyone unplugs their refrigerator during music listening...    ?

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

Yes. But a typical FMC has a 9v or 12v SMPS that comes with it and the FMC "receiver" power supply is usually plugged into the same AC 10 or 15 (or if you're lucky 20a circuit) from the mains box, (not a circuit from another part of the house that also isn't isolated). This cheap FMC SMPS "may" cause some noise to go back into that circuit, especially since one might have others for their TVs, cableTV boxes, etc.  I have 8 PSUs right now, - 5 of which are LPSs, - and 2 I can't do anything about. Of course you're right about big appliances like refrigerators and Laundry machines, sending noise back...

But, - everyone unplugs their refrigerator during music listening...    ?

Oh yeah, I would never do that.  If i had a receiving FMC being powered form the same circuit as the audio system, I would build a nice custom ultra low noise ultra low impedance linear supply for that one  ?, I am pretty good when it comes to custom linear supplies!

I was considering the opticalRendu with SMPS only on the "upstream" components.

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

Agreed, but; if all the gear powered by the cheap SMPS is placed far from the audio system (and preferably on the other phase of the homes AC wiring) one does achieve a great degree of isolation of that noise from the audio system, just by the length of wire.  Wire runs of 30'+ add enough resistance and capacitance to filter out a lot of high frequency noise on their own.

I would be much more concerned about my high power general appliances like washing machines, dishwashers, and refrigerators adding noise to the AC supply than a few low power SMPS with 30' or more of wiring between them and the audio system.  Although I would still ground those supplies for good measure since it is so easy to do.

 

and the higher the freq., the greater the attenuation with distance along the wire.

 

Indeed.  When I had my AC line tested over a week or more time span, no audio equipment noise injection was detectable, but cycling of the heat pump (much further away, as it was on the other side of the house) was readily apparent.

 

There is also the trick of putting sensitive components circuit on a different side of the elec. panel than the noisiest suspects... or adding a on a dedicated line, also on the 'quiet' side of the panel or a sub-panel.

 

or... your own power pole transformer, like that guy in Japan

[Foggie]

2 hours ago, barrows said:

Although I would still ground those supplies for good measure since it is so easy to do.

Can you clarify what you are you referring to?

 

This product looks very interesting and I am seriously considering moving to this from my microU.  My fiber setup is as follows and have had very good results thus far:

 

My server, NAS managed switch etc.. are all in my laundry room and I run a ~30m fiber to listening room. 

 

My switch is a Tplink_TL-SG3216 (AC powered) and use Cisco GLC-SX-MM SFP's in the switch and in the FMC which is a Trendnet TFC-1000MGA (which sits next to microU in audio rack).  From there I use a ~ 8in cat7 unshielded (on one end) to microU and usb to Lampizator.  I only have a LPS powering the microU and a Jameco reliapro powering the FMC.  Fiber cable is LC to LC multi-mode 50/125 OM3.  There's another thread on optical that I seem to recall specifying a different type/spec of cable, but I don't remember - thoughts on the above config are welcome in preperation for the opticalRendu.

[Dutch]

9 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

I can't see how it's possible that a fancy switch could make a difference with the OpticalRendu.

 

Since you were quoting me; I didn’t mean switches like the etherregen in an OpticalRendu setup but rather the ‘current’ setups: music server -> (copper ethernet) -> renderer. And that renderer could be anything, a PC, Micro-/UltraRendu, SMS-200 or whatever.

 

I wouldn’t dare to predict whether a setup like that would be better with an audiophile switch or Sonore audiophile fiber to ethernet converter.

 

Like I said, I’m very curious how they will all work out and what consensus will form once they’re out in the wild.

 

 

[vortecjr]

15 hours ago, Dutch said:

Like I said, I’m very curious how they will all work out and what consensus will form once they’re out in the wild.

Now there is a New Years resolution that has no chance of success:)

[vortecjr]

16 hours ago, Foggie said:

Can you clarify what you are you referring to?

 

This product looks very interesting and I am seriously considering moving to this from my microU.  My fiber setup is as follows and have had very good results thus far:

 

My server, NAS managed switch etc.. are all in my laundry room and I run a ~30m fiber to listening room. 

 

My switch is a Tplink_TL-SG3216 (AC powered) and use Cisco GLC-SX-MM SFP's in the switch and in the FMC which is a Trendnet TFC-1000MGA (which sits next to microU in audio rack).  From there I use a ~ 8in cat7 unshielded (on one end) to microU and usb to Lampizator.  I only have a LPS powering the microU and a Jameco reliapro powering the FMC.  Fiber cable is LC to LC multi-mode 50/125 OM3.  There's another thread on optical that I seem to recall specifying a different type/spec of cable, but I don't remember - thoughts on the above config are welcome in preperation for the opticalRendu.

He means grounding the DC negative of the power to AC ground...AKA John’s trick.

 

That setup seems fine. You will need a matching SFP at the opticalRendu as discussed above. 

[vortecjr]

20 hours ago, diecaster said:

 

But the USB circuitry after the optical input of the opticalRendu just adds exactly what  we are trying to get rid of. Adding the extra circuits an power supply cannot be considered a good thing here. 

I don’t want to get to far off topic here. Adding i2s would take a lot more circuit, require a lot more room, and require more power to do it right. There are two ways...on board USB interface or on board CPU based. I know you are against USB, but some kind of processor and some kind of driver are always involved in generating i2s on a computer so you are not really getting away from anything. Anyway, not to discourage you...keep and eye on our Signature series;)

[Foggie]

49 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

He means grounding the DC negative of the power to AC ground...AKA John’s trick.

 

That setup seems fine. You will need a matching SFP at the opticalRendu as discussed above. 

OK makes sense.

 

The Cisco SFP (GLC-SX-MM ) in my Trendnet would go into the opticalRendu which would work - being the same SFP is in my switch.

 

Using my optical config explained above as a "template" of sorts and I'm sure others are using similar, what changes would you or John recommend or see as a weak point if any?