Sonore opticalRendu

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Hurray for a return to sanity!  Now we can concentrate with things which make really big differences in sonics, like loudspeakers, and forget about random commercial computer gear upstream from an optical Rendu!

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1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

How a Fiber system may or may not isolate out electrical noise over layer 3 networks and have an affect on what is heard out of the speakers can and will vary

My understanding is that the above is patently false: optical cable cannot pass ANY noise, neither can it radiate noise, and neither can it pick up noise.  Now the downstream FMC can be a noise source, of course, hence the advantage to eliminating it via the optical Rendu.

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1 hour ago, diecaster said:

I just wish there were an opticalRendu with I2S out instead of USB. I’d buy one in a heartbeat. 

That is what the ultraDigital is for.  Adding I2S/SPDIF to any of the Rendu Series would add the same cost.  I know, it is another box, but this approach is ideal as it allows for a dedicated power supply for the (isolated) SPDIF/I2S circuitry.

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3 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

But the USB circuitry after the optical input of the opticalRendu just adds exactly what  we are trying to get rid of. Adding the extra circuits an power supply cannot be considered a good thing here. 

I do not find this to be the case.  There is nothing wrong with USB audio.  Additionally, the ultra Digital has another layer of isolation between the USB side and the SPDIF/I2S output.  Whether this is done in one box or two, you still need an additional power supply to make an isolated SPDIF/I2S output work.

 

Personally, I would prefer to use USB with a DAC which has a good USB input, as USB is technically superior to both SPDIF and I2S (being asynchronous and allowing for the DAC clock as master).  But I do understand that some DACs have poor USB inputs.

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2 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hi, - correct. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Also, - it might be possible for a SMPS on the FMC to introduce AC noise, which may or may not make it's way into the house AC and possibly into the system.  Thanks for clarifying

Agreed, but; if all the gear powered by the cheap SMPS is placed far from the audio system (and preferably on the other phase of the homes AC wiring) one does achieve a great degree of isolation of that noise from the audio system, just by the length of wire.  Wire runs of 30'+ add enough resistance and capacitance to filter out a lot of high frequency noise on their own.

I would be much more concerned about my high power general appliances like washing machines, dishwashers, and refrigerators adding noise to the AC supply than a few low power SMPS with 30' or more of wiring between them and the audio system.  Although I would still ground those supplies for good measure since it is so easy to do.

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1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

Yes. But a typical FMC has a 9v or 12v SMPS that comes with it and the FMC "receiver" power supply is usually plugged into the same AC 10 or 15 (or if you're lucky 20a circuit) from the mains box, (not a circuit from another part of the house that also isn't isolated). This cheap FMC SMPS "may" cause some noise to go back into that circuit, especially since one might have others for their TVs, cableTV boxes, etc.  I have 8 PSUs right now, - 5 of which are LPSs, - and 2 I can't do anything about. Of course you're right about big appliances like refrigerators and Laundry machines, sending noise back...

But, - everyone unplugs their refrigerator during music listening...    ?

Oh yeah, I would never do that.  If i had a receiving FMC being powered form the same circuit as the audio system, I would build a nice custom ultra low noise ultra low impedance linear supply for that one  ?, I am pretty good when it comes to custom linear supplies!

I was considering the opticalRendu with SMPS only on the "upstream" components.

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32 minutes ago, tomjtx said:

Sounds like a good upgrade from the UltraRendu to feed my Kii 3 speakers

Love the idea of this combo!  The Rendu and Kii seem like a great match.

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14 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

I have not yet seen pricing.  Did I miss that in some post?

Pricing has not been announced yet, patience grasshopper...

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2 hours ago, sahmen said:

Not sure I have understood all the technical specificities of this new rendu... I understand that the Opticalrendu is the new renderer...

 

However, is the Opticalmodule a different and separate box?

 

Where might an etherregen fit in all of this boxes?

 

Why is the etherregen's functionality not already covered in the Opticalrendu?

1.  The opticalRendu is an Ethernet Renderer with an optical Ethernet input instead of a wired Ethernet input.  It also features further improvements over the ultra and micro Rendus.

 

2.  The optical module is a high end quality Sonore made FMC (fiber media converter) for converting wire based Ethernet to optical Ethernet.

 

3.  The etherRegen is a product made by UpTone Audio, not Sonore, and has no relationship with the Sonore products (but some people might choose to use them together).  Discussions about the etherRegen belong in the UpTone Audio forum threads.  The EtherRegen is a Network Switch, not a Renderer-it is unrelated to the opticalRendu.

 

Please let us know if you have other questions regarding the opticalRendu.

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41 minutes ago, matthias said:

Would be interesting if OR with a standard PS can outperform UR with a great PS?

 

Matt

Seems like anyone would want to go with the best power supply possible?  Why would one want to compromise, the better the Renderer, the bigger difference a really good power supply makes.  This is the same with most things in audio: increase resolution, and small differences get bigger...

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3 hours ago, firedog said:

Uh, price and diminishing returns. How much better is a $2000 supply than the “low noise” one sold by SMG for under $200? A lot? A little? 10% 50% 200%?

If it is a relatively small amount, why do I want to pay 2X or 10X as much for something that may make a very small improvement in my end result. 

At that point I would not bother with an opticalRendu then...  Realistically, the regular wired Rendus already sound fantastic...

 

Of course diminishing returns is always a factor at this level, but we are talking about sources which blow the doors off even the very best disc spinners here.  I view the power supply, for any component, as the foundation of that component's performance.  I would not put a Kia engine in a McLaren, nor would I use an average power supply for an opticalRandu.  At this level of performance I am talking about system prices at $25K and up, I do not think a few extra dollars for a really good power supply is inadvisable.  OTOH, if one has a $1500.00 Chinese DAC, perhaps spending money on an opticalRendu is not the top priority for the system...

 

In top level components the power supply is often the most expensive part of the component, as the actual parts often cost the most (large amounts of quality capacitance, and good transformers are physical parts which by their nature cost quite a bit in terms of electronic parts), understanding that, one can see why a really good power supply costs some money; and this is half of why the Signature Series Rendus with no compromise built in power supplies are quite a bit more money than the external power supply versions (the other half is the expense of the customer made in USA chassis).  

  

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@sahmen:

 

1.  Only you can make this determination, I cannot decide for you what level of improvement might be "worthwhile".

 

2.  To incorporate an opticalRendu you would need the opticalRendu itself, an FMC (or Sonore optical module when available) 

     two SFP modules (one for the FMC and one for the opticalRendu) and an optical cable of appropriate length.  The power  

    supply for the opticalRendu would be the critical one, of you are satisfied with the performance of the LPS-1.2 then that

    would be suitable.  Of these components, the FMC will need a power supply (they are generally sold with a cheap SMPS), but 

    the FMC is isolated from the opticalRendu, hence I would not bother with an upgraded power supply for it.

 

Remember that SGC is a separate company from Sonore, and as such they may sell and recommend gear of their choosing.  The best power supply for the opticalRendu is hard to determine at this point, I have not personally tested anything yet, so I am not going to make recommendations.  As the opticalRendu is not available yet we have some time to sort this out.  Also remember that UpTone Audio is a different company from Sonore as well, I have no experience with the LPS 1.2, and as such I would not comment on its performance. 

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11 minutes ago, sahmen said:

 

Thanks.  Terms such as FMC, SFP modules, and even Sonore optical module do not refer to any actual accessories I am familiar with, but I consider this a good start, and I'll be ready to deal with the learning curve, should i decide to get on board.

 

By the way, I am aware that SGC, and Uptone Audio are companies that are separate and independent from Sonore, so I am not necessarily confusing them with Sonore in making these inquiries about accessories and power supplies.  It does help though, when one has a ready set of recommended accessories for a unit with which I am not familiar, as I did when I got the LPS-1.2 for the Ultrarendu, or the LPS-1 for my first microrendu...  Besides these companies often appear to share some collaborative ventures (if I am not mistaken), so I tend to associate them together, on occasion, but without necessarily considering them to be identical...

 

Thanks again

Sure, I am glad you understand for some clarity:

 

FMC: fiber media converter.  this is a device with has a wired Ethernet input/output, and an optical Ethernet input/output (SFP cage).  It is used to convert Ethernet from optical to wired, and as are all ethernet accessories it is bi-directional.

 

SFP module:  this is the module which inserts into the SFP cage on both the opticalRendu and the FMC (or an Ethernet switch with an SFP cage).  The module provides the actual optical signal, and is chosen to match the cable in use (for example LC to LC) and the capabilities of the unit.

 

Sonore optical Module:  This is a forthcoming product from Sonore which is a high end FMC.

 

In your setup, to incorporate an opticalRendu, the easiest way would be:

 

Connect an FMC to your router or switch via Ethernet cable (like CAT 6A), put an SFP module in the FMC for LC (optical) cable type, run an LC/LC optical cable to the opticalRendu from the FMC.  And then run the USB cable from the opticalRendu to your DAC.

 

I hope that explanation makes sense.

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2 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

not necessarily...........i have a fiber fmc but with a different connector, so i need a new SFP to go into one of my netgear routers

or just a different cable?  Cable providers will terminate with different connectors to suit, as long as you have a Gigabit SFP.  Fantastic quality optical cable is cheaper than good quality CAT 6A...

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I think it bears mentioning that the opticalRendu is not just an ultraRendu with an optical input.  The opticalRendu is (nearly) a completely new design, with many improvements.

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6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

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Will there be any upgrade in the power supply section on the new Signature optical version ?

 

Will the New Signature be available in silver ?

That is TBD...  I have not even built a first prototype Signature optical (yet).  If/when Sonore does offer a "Signature" level opticalRendu one can be assured it will be optimized for the best possible performance.  There are a couple of power supply changes I will be testing...

It is also very likely that there will be an upgrade program for current Signature Rendu SE owners (The Chassis, transformer, and power supply in the SRse make up a significant portion of the cost), as these customers have a very significant investment in their Renderer.

As for silver, I do not know.  Perhaps...  offering even two faceplate color options adds significant complexities and expense to inventory management and is difficult for a low production volume product like this.  The black faceplate on the Signature is a really special finish and looks fantastic (no way can pictures do it justice) but we understand the desire of some customers for silver...

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2 hours ago, analogmusic said:

is there going to be a optical rendu product with BNC SPDIF output? That's the one that interests me.

 

Sonore has the ultraDigital product to provide for SPDIF/I2S output.  Adding SPDIF to the opticalRednu would add considerable cost (probably almost doubling the cost) so we prefer to have a very good USB output so that only those who really need SPDIF would have to pay for the extra expense.

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1 hour ago, analogmusic said:

Understand but then I’ll be staying happy with my allo digi one streamer with BNC spdif ouput

There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you are happy with the quality of your playback, that's great!  Enjoy the music.

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20 minutes ago, lxgreen said:

This would be great news if you can upgrade my Signature Rendu SE to include this modification. I got the unit as a way to imorove sq but also simplify system. I figured I would not get the new optical modules since it adds more devices/ cables, etc. however, if it were part of an upgrade I wouldn’t hesitate to do it. 

It is almost certain that there will be an upgrade option for the Signature Rendu SE.  This would replace the main board with a completely new one, retaining the power supply and chassis.  We are still around 6 weeks away from being ready to announce this officially, and we have yet to set pricing, so just stay tuned for announcements.

Please note that this upgrade would not just add the optical input, the new main board is a new design with many other improvements as well.

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3 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

any feedback from internal testers you care to  share?

All I can say here is that I think anyone who upgrades their Signature Rendu SE to the optical version will be happy...

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4 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

Jesus,

Feed us some crumbs here..............any feedback on opticalRendu vs. ultraRendu from internal testers that can be shared?

Did you watch Chris' quick bit video on the opticalRendu?

 

 

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36 minutes ago, alexreusch said:

Do you see any added value of the ultraDigital using I2S behind the opticalRendu? I mean, the USB output of the opticalRendu should be close to perfect, not? If a DAC has a very good USB input (PS-Audio), don't you think the extra box (ultraDigital) will be obsolete?

This is going to be DAC dependent, and bit of a preference among users as well.  Personally, I prefer USB in nearly all cases, but I do not want to argue the point with those who swear that I2S is better with their DAC-although I would always suggest start with USB out of the Rendu products, and use a really good USB cable.  The USB cable really matters, I know, it is maddening, but it is true.

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@Mike Rubin.  I prefer to not use any "add on" devices.  I use the output of the Signature Rendu optical with a really good USB cable direct into my DACs.  The output of the Rendu is already really clean and I would rather avoid the complexities of add ons and the additional connections required to use them.  Always consider that every additional plug in connection is a point of loss.

If people want to use add on devices, they are certainly welcome to, but I am not interested.  My advice would always be: get the fundamentals perfect before adding any tweaks.  Have the best Renderer you can, use optical isolation to reduce the influence of upstream components (servers, routers, switches, etc), use the best USB cable you can afford, and make sure you have a really good DAC with a really good USB implementation.  Once all the fundamentals are perfected, only then, would I say one might want to experiment with add ons, remembering that every additional component always adds its own noise signature (an inaccuracy be definition) to the system.  I prefer to KISS.

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Some people prefer to use I2S for their DAC.  I am not interested in saying they are wrong, if that is what works best for them, great, we have the ultraDigital.  For me, i have no fear of USB between my Signature Rendu systemeOptique and my DACs.