Davidny Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Here’s a description, particularly at the beginning and very end of the video, of the difference between using the Tambaqui directly into your amplifier and using a preamp. In my experience if you’re seeking the best possible sound and can afford the investment a good preamp will make a big, positive difference. Link to comment
Popular Post PYP Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 7 minutes ago, Davidny said: Here’s a description, particularly at the beginning and very end of the video, of the difference between using the Tambaqui directly into your amplifier and using a preamp. In my experience if you’re seeking the best possible sound and can afford the investment a good preamp will make a big, positive difference. The choice may also rest upon choice of music. Bill mentions in the video that Bruno prefers going direct to his (that is, designed by Bruno) amps because he likes the experience of being in the recording studio. I'm sure you get that too with a your great preamp, but primarily listening to Jazz, I do like the recording studio listening experience and find I get that direct. Using the ethernet input to the Tambaqui, while it always sounded good, took a significant jump in my system when I added the UpTone etherREGEN. The initial improvement was in making the soundstage much larger and dynamic, as well as adding detail without etch and better timbre and PRAT. Since I listen to all kinds of music, this was a welcome improvement. Adding an opticalModule (copper ethernet to fiber converter), an external clock and LPS for the eR, further improved all of those areas. Adding a second eR was all about emotional connection to the music, something that just the Tambaqui + Kaluga amps already provided, but now reached a new level. Quite beautiful and pure sound. Perhaps a top tier preamp would simply build on all of that and/or make such noise cleaners unnecessary since it provides the cleaning. I don't think I'll ever add a preamp (though I have used them in the past), so will probably never know. Superdad and soares 2 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Joel Chevassus, who used to contribute to 6moons and now has his own website, reviewed the Tambaqi a year ago (here, in French:https://audiophile-magazine.com/audiophile-magazine-n1-mars-2020/) and noted one point which I am very curious about. He states that he was hard pressed to find differences between CD quality (16/44) and higher resolution formats (DSD, or others), concluding "c'est assez incroyable" ("it's pretty amazing"). I don't know if he actually compared the same track (with the same mastering) in various formats. But regardless, I was wondering what current users of the Tambaqi have to say about this. Thanks. soares 1 Link to comment
mevdinc Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Personally, I always prefer DAC direct to my active speakers, of course, as long as the DAC provides a good enough volume control. I thought Tambaqui provided a decent volume control. mevdinc.com (My autobiography) Recently sold my ATC EL 150 Actives! Link to comment
Popular Post PYP Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, hopkins said: Joel Chevassus, who used to contribute to 6moons and now has his own website, reviewed the Tambaqi a year ago (here, in French:https://audiophile-magazine.com/audiophile-magazine-n1-mars-2020/) and noted one point which I am very curious about. He states that he was hard pressed to find differences between CD quality (16/44) and higher resolution formats (DSD, or others), concluding "c'est assez incroyable" ("it's pretty amazing"). I don't know if he actually compared the same track (with the same mastering) in various formats. But regardless, I was wondering what current users of the Tambaqi have to say about this. Thanks. I would state it a little differently. The Tambaqui excels at presenting CD quality resolution as if they are higher resolution vs. other DACs I have had. Yet, you do hear a distinct difference in the representation of space/spatial clues with 96kHz and above. Qobuz seems to have quite a few of these higher resolution recordings lately and when I use Roon radio (when Roon chooses similar music), I can hear the higher resolution before I confirm it in the Roon interface. If the space opens up, it is most likely a 96kHz recording. Of course these are gross generalizations and how the music was recorded is the most important element. I've heard some CD quality that sound very close or equal to the higher resolution versions. And often, with my favorite music (if decently recorded), I don't care about the resolution. Roon provides a "versions" option when Qobuz has multiple versions, so it is easy to compare. I have found a few instances when the highest resolution does not sound better to me, not sure why. The Tambaqui makes the best of whatever you feed it. You can certainly enjoy CD quality (that is mostly what I listen to) and never find anything lacking in the reproduction of sound. That is one major reason this DAC works so well for me. The longer I listen to this DAC, the more I both love it and respect all that it brings. Can's say that about any previous DAC I've had. Qhwoeprktiyns and fheller 1 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
ted_b Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Has any Tambaqui owner or dealer found a particular "sweet spot" with this dac; meaning, if one uses an upsampling engine like HQPlayer or an offline upsampler (or even serendipitously found a 24/xxx recording) does the Tambaqui seem to like certain sampling rates over others? If so, maybe Miska's comments (albeit a bit biased as the developer of HQP) about sending this dac the highest PCM you can has some merit? Same goes for DSD files....thx "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2021 8 minutes ago, ted_b said: Has any Tambaqui owner or dealer found a particular "sweet spot" with this dac; meaning, if one uses an upsampling engine like HQPlayer or an offline upsampler (or even serendipitously found a 24/xxx recording) does the Tambaqui seem to like certain sampling rates over others? If so, maybe Miska's comments (albeit a bit biased as the developer of HQP) about sending this dac the highest PCM you can has some merit? Same goes for DSD files....thx AFAIK, the Kii's I own have a similar DAC operation (the software/upsampling/resampling part) to the Mola Mola. Kii recommends leaving all sample rates as is - since everything is interally resampled and upsampled with their proprietary engine. I also find that this works best and I don't hear any real difference between formats. You could also ask the US distributor, GTT. Urs and fheller 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post fheller Posted April 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2021 On 3/31/2021 at 5:33 PM, ted_b said: Has any Tambaqui owner or dealer found a particular "sweet spot" with this dac; meaning, if one uses an upsampling engine like HQPlayer or an offline upsampler (or even serendipitously found a 24/xxx recording) does the Tambaqui seem to like certain sampling rates over others? If so, maybe Miska's comments (albeit a bit biased as the developer of HQP) about sending this dac the highest PCM you can has some merit? Same goes for DSD files....thx I retired HQPlayer after I received the Tambaqui. I could not find benefits sending higher res PCM or DSD via HQP to the Tambaqui. PYP, skatbelt and TerryO 2 1 Link to comment
Miska Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 On 3/31/2021 at 6:33 PM, ted_b said: Same goes for DSD files....thx Mola-Mola DACs convert DSD inputs to PCM. So if you use HQPlayer with those, it is best to always send highest possible rate PCM there and never DSD. (similar way as with Chord DACs) happybob 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post skatbelt Posted April 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Miska said: Mola-Mola DACs convert DSD inputs to PCM. So if you use HQPlayer with those, it is best to always send highest possible rate PCM there and never DSD. (similar way as with Chord DACs) I agree with never DSD on Chord DAC's but my DAVE likes PCM at native rates the best. So no upsampling in Roon or HQPlayer for me. PYP and fheller 1 1 Streamer dCS Network Bridge DAC Chord DAVE Amplifier / DRC Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Speakers Lindemann BL-10 | JL audio E-sub e110 Head-fi and reference Bakoon HPA-21 | Audeze LCD-3 (f) Power and isolation Dedicated power line | Xentek extreme isolation transformer (1KVA, balanced) | Uptone Audio EtherREGEN + Ferrum Hypsos | Sonore OpticalModule + Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 | Jensen CI-1RR Cables Jorma Digital XLR (digital), Grimm Audio SQM RCA (analog), Kimber 8TC + WBT (speakers), custom star-quad with Oyaide connectors (AC), Ferrum (DC) and Ghent (ethernet) Software dCS Mosaic | Tidal | Qobuz Link to comment
Miska Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 3 hours ago, skatbelt said: I agree with never DSD on Chord DAC's but my DAVE likes PCM at native rates the best. So no upsampling in Roon or HQPlayer for me. Well, you like the native rates best. ;) IOW, Chord's upsampling to 705.6/768k PCM. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Nenon Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 8 hours ago, Miska said: Mola-Mola DACs convert DSD inputs to PCM. So if you use HQPlayer with those, it is best to always send highest possible rate PCM there and never DSD. (similar way as with Chord DACs) Does anyone know to what PCM rate Mola-Mola DACs convert to internally? Thank you! Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
matthias Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, Nenon said: Does anyone know to what PCM rate Mola-Mola DACs convert to internally? Thank you! Asynchronous upsampling to 3.125MHz/32 bit. Matt Nenon 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Just now, matthias said: Asynchronous upsampling to 3.125MHz/32 bit. Matt Oh wow. That's a tough one to send at a native rate to avoid internal upsampling :~) It is however, strong support that upsampling to very high levels can be beneficial. barrows 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
barrows Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, Nenon said: Does anyone know to what PCM rate Mola-Mola DACs convert to internally? Thank you! A very high rate: https://www.mola-mola.nl/dac.php And then much higher even before the final 32 element discrete FIR filter converter. Let's remember that in the case of Mr. Putzeys, we are dealing with someone who has loads of experience in SD modulator design, and the maths behind it. This DAC also has more processing power than most, using 3 AD SHARC DSP chips. Given how good it sounds with native rate files, it makes me wonder if this might be one of a very few DACs which might not benefit from external oversampling via HQPlayer-no matter what the user does, the Tambaqui's ASRC will be active and will be applying its internal SD modulation, volume control, and oversampling. It would be interesting, if it were possible, to find out what the DAC converter section and output stage alone might sound like, but I doubt there are any owners who might want to hack their Tamabaqui to try this with HQPlayer feeding straight into the converter section! The Computer Audiophile 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Nenon Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 23 minutes ago, matthias said: Asynchronous upsampling to 3.125MHz/32 bit. Thank you. So it's upsampling internally to 3.125MHz (I guess that's 64fs) but it is accepting only PCM up to 384kHz/32 bits (i.e. 8 fs). That is different than the Chord DAVE where we know that by sending 16fs signal we bypass the internal upsampling. That bypassing of the internal upsampling on the DAVE is known to reduce the power consumption on it's digital section power supply (almost) in half and results in much lower noise. It seems like heavy upsampling on the Mola-mola is a major part of its design and cannot be bypassed completely. There is a chance that sending the max 384kHz rate would reduce the processing by a fraction. But in that case we would be trading a fraction of less processing in the DAC for more real time processing on the server side. In other words, hard to predict what would sound better. Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
matthias Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, Nenon said: But in that case we would be trading a fraction of less processing in the DAC for more real time processing on the server side. In other words, hard to predict what would sound better. Interesting topic. Grimm Audio for example claim that all DACs benefit from the upsampling to 176kHz in their server. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 hour ago, barrows said: A very high rate: https://www.mola-mola.nl/dac.php And then much higher even before the final 32 element discrete FIR filter converter. Let's remember that in the case of Mr. Putzeys, we are dealing with someone who has loads of experience in SD modulator design, and the maths behind it. This DAC also has more processing power than most, using 3 AD SHARC DSP chips. Given how good it sounds with native rate files, it makes me wonder if this might be one of a very few DACs which might not benefit from external oversampling via HQPlayer-no matter what the user does, the Tambaqui's ASRC will be active and will be applying its internal SD modulation, volume control, and oversampling. It would be interesting, if it were possible, to find out what the DAC converter section and output stage alone might sound like, but I doubt there are any owners who might want to hack their Tamabaqui to try this with HQPlayer feeding straight into the converter section! Sorry to ask a very basic question, that others may be curious about as well, but in layman's terms, what is the theoretical benefit of oversampling? Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, hopkins said: Sorry to ask a very basic question, that others may be curious about as well, but in layman's terms, what is the theoretical benefit of oversampling? I don’t think it’s theoretical. It’s objectively measurable. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I don’t think it’s theoretical. It’s objectively measurable. Ok, but I am just curious to understand. I'm not trying to challenge anything here,or derail the conversation, which in fact I initiated when mentioning J. Chevassus' comments above. Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Sharing some further experience. I have recently sold my Taiko modified T+A DAC8 DSD which I pitted favourably (when the T+A was fed DSD from HQPlayer) against the Tambaqui. Reason for the sale? I have managed to work some magic on a Chord qutest through multiple stages of filtering so that IMO the qutest now sounds better than the T+A and the Tambaqui (please note that I am still awaiting a good passive volume control to go with this, and your source needs to be as good as one of @Nenon server builds to achieve this). I think the comment @ray-dude made - don't let anything get in the way of Chord DAC's otherwise the magic is gone. This is 100% true. First config: JCAT USB XE (Powered by Teddy Pardo) -> Sablon USB -> qutest. Nothing really amazing to write home about, sounds very good, but I wouldn't part with the T+A based on this as it is a few steps behind and it sounds like a £1000 DAC. My present configuration that resulted in the sale of the T+A is: JCAT USB XE (Powered by Teddy Pardo, 5v @ 3A - qutest set to 2v output so as not to overload) 1st USB port: Sablon USB -> Matrix Audio x-spdif 2 -> Altas Mavros Optical -> qutest 2nd USB port: 5v power to the qutest via micro-usb cable Thanks to Ray-Dude for the recommendation of the x-spdif 2. This configuration is really stunning - but it all has to be top class gear otherwise the magic is lost (the only compromise that can be made is the toslink cable - a cheaper glass one would probably be fine). But think about it, you've got a very good linear power supply, then feeding the JCAT which has a further set of LT3045 linear regulators - so effectively the x-spdif 2 and the qutest are now receiving double regulated power which everyone talks about in such high regard. The x-spdif 2 then has further filtering inside it and it also has good clocks. The optical cable also removes any emi/rf from getting into the DAC. These are the same tricks that people are doing with multiple network switches. In the above case we're getting double regulation and double clocking. How does it sound - noticeably more lifelike and dynamic than the T+A and with more detail retrieval. Tonal quality is superb. I also prefer it over the Mola Mola and definately over the DAVE in stock form. I never thought I would say that. Would be interesting to try a TT2 or DAVE with this config. Next step is a pink faun spdif card so if if this can replace/match/beat the aforementioned chain. fds 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, hopkins said: Ok, but I am just curious to understand. I'm not trying to challenge anything here,or derail the conversation, which in fact I initiated when mentioning J. Chevassus' comments above. I totally understand your intention :~) from Wikipedia: ”Oversampling is capable of improving resolutionand signal-to-noise ratio, and can be helpful in avoiding aliasing and phase distortion by relaxing anti-aliasing filter performance requirements.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling Qhwoeprktiyns 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post ray-dude Posted April 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2021 There is a whole field of Information Theory devoted to this subject. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker–Shannon_interpolation_formula Directly germane to audio, with sinc-based filters used to interpolate values in upsampled music (for example, as used in Chord DACs). The impact on time-domain accuracy/reproduction is profound. It is not the upsampling that intrinsically improves SQ, but the algorithms and filters used in upsampling that improve SQ. A high resolution file can sound worse than redbook, or it can sound like the original studio master before it got processed down to redbook. With the later, things can be magical. Zaphod Beeblebrox, Qhwoeprktiyns and happybob 2 1 ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers Link to comment
ray-dude Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 To followup, this is sometimes easier to (literally) see if you look at image processing. There are different ways to upsample an image, all of which have pluses and minuses: https://clouard.users.greyc.fr/Pantheon/experiments/rescaling/index-en.html Same is true with audio. The nasty wrinkle here is that these algorithms work in reverse when down sampling. When that DXD master file (24 bit 352kHz) gets processed to generation the CD quality file you stream or buy, depending on how that is done, there would be irreversible damage done to the original digital information. As much care needs to be taken when downsampling as upsampling. Net net is that upsampling sometimes brings magic, sometimes is "eh", depending on what happened to the digital file WAY before it got to you. Different filters end up working with different albums because of this. With the above link, it some some image down sampling without various filters. You can visually see what the filters are doing to the original. Not a perfect analogy, but gives a sense about why all upsampling isn't the same (or all downsampling) happybob 1 ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers Link to comment
Popular Post barrows Posted April 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Nenon said: So it's upsampling internally to 3.125MHz (I guess that's 64fs) but it is accepting only PCM up to 384kHz/32 bits (i.e. 8 fs). Yeah, not really, there is an important distinction here, the MM DACs are not oversampling by an even multiple of any known sample rate (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x... or 64x), the relationship is entirely asynchronous to the incoming sample rate, so no matter what rate one feeds the MM DAC, there is going to be some fairly laborious maths going on, hence reducing the processing done is not going to happen by much. And the DAC is still going to apply its SD modulator. While asynchronous sample rate conversion has gotten a bad reputation (mostly due to the relatively low power processing applied by dedicated hardware ASRC chips such as the TI 4192) it is a very good way to virtually eliminate the effects of incoming jitter: the problem is it is math intensive, and to do it well requires more precise maths, and therefore more processing power. The good news is that this DAC sounds outstanding, and one should consider the skills of Mr. Putzeys here: while some DAC designers might not be so good at figuring out how to make their analog circuitry immune to any noise caused by the internal processing, Bruno Putzeys is well versed in keeping analog circuitry from being effected by internal RF/HF noise. This is one of the reasons his Class D amplifier designs can have such a clean output, despite having a large amount off high speed switching noise internally. PYP, Nenon, TerryO and 2 others 3 1 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
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