barrows Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 2 hours ago, yyz said: If you get the chance, try the Benchmark LA4 or HPA4 preamp into your chain. They have a 30 day home trial for those people who are curious. I found it was a better sound than direct to amp. It is quiet as the Mola Mola Makua but cost$ 2500. I think it is an incredible component that will help most DACs. It will not make your DAC noisier and likely make you volume control sound better. Nope, I have thoroughly and exhaustively tested this and have absolute zero interest in going backwards here. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
LawrenceT Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 3 hours ago, yyz said: If you get the chance, try the Benchmark LA4 or HPA4 preamp into your chain. They have a 30 day home trial for those people who are curious. I found it was a better sound than direct to amp. It is quiet as the Mola Mola Makua but cost$ 2500. I think it is an incredible component that will help most DACs. It will not make your DAC noisier and likely make you volume control sound better. If true, you get the bonus balanced headphone amp. Maybe a consideration for the dCS Rossini. 🤔 Link to comment
yyz Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 19 minutes ago, LawrenceT said: If true, you get the bonus balanced headphone amp. Maybe a consideration for the dCS Rossini. 🤔 The specs are listed here. https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/all-products/products/hpa4 This unit does not have a sonic signature that you will hear. You won't hear this unit which maybe a good thing or bad thing, no flavouring. My understanding is that the 30 day home trial is not available in Canada. A few folks with $100K systems have replaced their $20K preamps with this one. That is not a great indicator to me that this unit is great because I think audio is way overpriced. However, I think a lot of people will find that type of switch something to pique their interest. That incredible noise floor makes me comfortable adding any unit to my system, such as maybe a future Tambaqui, without the preamp hiding the DACs performance. Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Reporting back: PYP 1 Link to comment
photonman Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 On 11/6/2020 at 12:01 PM, yyz said: However, I think a lot of people will find that type of switch something to pique their interest. My interest was piqued and switching to a LA4 from my DAC3 direct to the amp has been a definite improvement due to the better volume control, especially at low to moderate levels. I now have a full Benchmark stack so system synergy is a real consideration. RIG: iFi Zen Stream - Benchmark DAC3 L - LA4 - AHB2 | Paradigm Sig S6 | Cables: anything available Link to comment
mav52 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 On 11/4/2020 at 11:50 AM, The Computer Audiophile said: Agree. Even rooms made for audio have issues :~) My only thing is this - how can one be certain they are hearing the DAC, the amp, etc... without knowing the characteristics of the room? More than likely one is hearing the room's effects on the DAC and that doesn't translate to my room, your room, or any other room. It's all good though. This is a fun hobby and as long as we're having fun and enjoying it, that's what counts. Slam some $$$ headphones on the head and the room is gone, but of course the headamp and source providing the music will always be up for argument. The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
Davidny Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Eye opening story about a “modded” Tambaqui Matias 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 25 minutes ago, Davidny said: Eye opening story about a “modded” Tambaqui Ha! What are those dots?! Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
barrows Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Yikes! SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Popular Post DuckToller Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 "he removed most of what he applied" ROTFLOL 😂😂😂 PYP and The Computer Audiophile 2 Link to comment
Popular Post MarkusBarkus Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 ...alien autopsy. That's the Area51 "quantum upgrade package." The Computer Audiophile and PYP 1 1 I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post. Link to comment
PYP Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 the video should come with an advisory. I would think "Mature Audience" given the violence done (and to a perfectly innocent piece of gear). I wonder who did the mod - maybe a "friend" who is an "expert." If not, am curious how much it costs to kill a quality component these days. That said, honestly, I've added a few things to the inside of equipment I owned in my earlier years in this hobby. Always followed a couple of rules though: do no harm, do nothing that cannot be easily reversed, always apply the tweak after the equipment was thoroughly settled in and the sound was very familiar, add only one tweak at a time. Over the years, my conclusion was to own gear that didn't need tweaking. Which is what the Mola Mola gear is to me. DuckToller 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post barrows Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 Just about any component can be improved by some degree of modification or another, and certainly the sound of any component can be changed (not necessarily improved) by modification. But that does not mean that one should go ahead and pursue these things. In my time working in CS and tech support I have seen some horrific things done to perfectly good electronics, by people who clearly had no business messing around inside a well designed and constructed piece of electronics. Including changes which killed the component. Everyone should note that any changes will almost certainly completely void your warranty, so do not get pissed at the manufacturer when something goes wrong with a modded piece of gear. PYP and fas42 2 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
PYP Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, barrows said: Everyone should note that any changes will almost certainly completely void your warranty which does not help the resale value. Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post audio.bill Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 3 hours ago, PYP said: which does not help the resale value. Yet there are some who believe that when it comes time to sell they'll be able to recover the modification cost and include it in the unit's retail price. The truth is that modified units are generally less desirable and worth less than a unit that is in its original condition. PYP and Matias 2 Link to comment
plissken Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Why would anyone be surprised by someone dropping $12K on a mere DAC see that same person 'modify' it. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more the more $$ is spent. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 24, 2020 7 hours ago, plissken said: Why would anyone be surprised by someone dropping $12K on a mere DAC see that same person 'modify' it. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more the more $$ is spent. Not really. You're only showing your own prejudices against people who spend big money. I think most people who buy such an item buy it because they don't think it needs mods. There are always going to be people with audiophillia nervosa who will buy into almost anything. The DAC is state of the art in pretty much every way including cosmetics,build, service, upgradability. So you pay for that. You think it's silly. Other people have money and want the best. The Computer Audiophile, barrows and Matias 3 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
plissken Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 8 hours ago, firedog said: Not really. You're only showing your own prejudices against people who spend big money. My prejudice isn't driven by jealousy, it's driven by incredulity :-) For this type of device you can't massage any more performance out of it after a certain point. I'm pretty sure it's no where near $12K. So I'm not surprised by the person chasing what they are chasing at $12K for a DAC taking it one step further... Link to comment
PYP Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, plissken said: My prejudice isn't driven by jealousy, it's driven by incredulity :-) For this type of device you can't massage any more performance out of it after a certain point. I'm pretty sure it's no where near $12K. So I'm not surprised by the person chasing what they are chasing at $12K for a DAC taking it one step further... The Tambaqui is $13,400. It includes a Roon endpoint streamer and preamp function. It costs less than the Soulution 760, that has the same functions, and costs $72,000. Of course, if you are looking for only a DAC, there is always the Wadax reference DAC, which costs $145,000. And if you are an analog guy, there is the TechDASAir Force Zero Turntable at $450,000 (according to one source, the median cost of a house in the US is $200,000). plissken 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted December 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, plissken said: I'm pretty sure it's no where near $12K. Mark, For a so-called “objectivist” you seem pretty challenged by the simple math of build cost, company overhead, profit margin, plus dealer margin. Build cost for that DAC is likely about $3K. Add some staff labor, 2x for modest margin, 35-40% dealer discount—and you are right there at $12K. If Mola Mola did not have a whole range of products each selling in reasonable numbers and sharing some chassis components then they would be losing money at that price. [How do I know this? For 10 years I co-ran a well-known and well-regarded pre-amp/amp firm—with 70 dealers/importers around the world—doing $1mil+/year and still lost money and had to fold (because the the overseas “distributors” ended up being 90% of the biz and the 50%+ discounts they received sucked all the profit from our high-build-cost products; we did not introduce new products fast enough to keep domestic dealers interested; it was also 2008, the height of the last economic contraction and USA brick-and-mortar dealers were dropping like flies.] fheller, Matias, PYP and 2 others 5 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post barrows Posted December 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, PYP said: The Tambaqui is $13,400. It includes a Roon endpoint streamer and preamp function. It costs less than the Soulution 760, that has the same functions, and costs $72,000. Of course, if you are looking for only a DAC, there is always the Wadax reference DAC, which costs $145,000. And if you are an analog guy, there is the TechDASAir Force Zero Turntable at $450,000 (according to one source, the median cost of a house in the US is $200,000). I believe @plissken has not actually listened to a Tambaqui, and is of the belief system (based on no listening experience of the Tambaqui) that there is no DAC which could possibly sound better than, say, a Benchmark. Of course anyone who actually heard these two DACs would immediately notice the difference in sound, unless the system context was total crap. Belief systems are funny this way, when they keep one from actually having a real experience with which to back up their assertions. On standard measures, the Tambaqui also outperforms a Benchmark, but I think most of us can agree that the standard measures of both reveal no audible "problems". Here is Bruno Putzeys on why he made an original design rather than using an OTS chip: "It's kinda funny, it feels almost like a blast from the past as I did this DAC design in 2013... It wasn't a single handed job btw. I did the schematics and prepared all the algos in MATLAB and my mate Bart van der Laan then rolled the circuit boards and did some heroic assembly language coding. In case anyone's wondering why I decided to go discrete, I actually started testing existing sigma-delta DAC chips first but could find none that didn't have idle tones. I suspect that is still the case. Chip manufacturers usually manage to move these out of the band at mid-scale (i.e. zero or small signal), but they show up in a THD vs level graph as a small increase in apparent noise typically starting at -20dBfs. Basically this "noise" are tones that are swept in and out of the audio band, frequency modulated by the signal. The simplest way of testing for this is to do a noise level vs DC input plot. The tones, when they appear, are well above the noise floor, even as integrated over the audio band. Using PWM as a conversion format solves this tone problem, but nobody is doing that on an IC. Hence the discrete design. I won't speculate on the audibility of this phenomenon but anything that is measurable is fair game for me. If people are going to shell out serious moolah for a DAC, least thing you can do is show an objectively provable benefit. Low jitter is also something I like to that's why we ended up coding our own ASRC algorithm." The above quote is excerpted from Bruno Putzeys' comments on the ASR review of the Tambaqui. Perhaps the idle tones Bruno speaks of are responsible for the relatively obvious (to me) sound quality advantage of the Tambaqui vs. common SDM chip based DACs, perhaps it is something else. What is clear from the above is that all aspects of DAC performance cannot be expressed by a few common measurements: if one is looking to produce a superior product, one has to explore beyond the standard single tone responses. PYP, Superdad and Matias 2 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
MarkusBarkus Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 ...and selling a relatively small number of units of anything translates to increased cost per unit. And how do you roll in R&D costs, across time? Holy mackerel. And risk. The cost of risk is a typically unspoken/hidden cost. Guys go for years living on a spouse paycheck, taking a second, etc. High-end anything costs a lot, according to the characteristics of a given population to afford and desire the thing for sale. No body needs another freakin new dac. In these conversations with friends, on ordinary goods and services (plumbing, coat, car), I find when people think something is outrageously expensive, it's because they "think" it should cost less. They may not be informed by why something costs what it does: it just seems too much. Plain example: I used to play table tennis--it's OK to call it ping-pong if you like--at a fair level. I was an assistant coach at a university in Japan for players on scholarship--for ping-pong. Quit laughing. Talking with non-playing friends, they could not believe my "racquet" was about 200-250 bucks. And I would routinely change rubber at 50 bucks a pop. They thought I was nuts. But actually, they just didn't see the value or how it impacted the elements of the game. Lastly, I think many folks express their comments based on what they think a thing should cost. And that's a greasy slope. I'm not meaning to compare @plisskento my dopey friends; he can speak for himself. I'm just sharing my observations. I would like to pay about 200 bucks for a Mola Mola dac. That seems right. 😉 TerryO 1 I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post. Link to comment
plissken Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 53 minutes ago, barrows said: I believe @plissken has not actually listened to a Tambaqui, and is of the belief system (based on no listening experience of the Tambaqui) that there is no DAC which could possibly sound better than, say, a Benchmark. I'll take those odds if this is an offer... You were in the thread with a dealer of Mola Mola questioning the ROI (Keith of Purite' Audio). Link to comment
plissken Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said: ...and selling a relatively small number of units of anything translates to increased cost per unit. And how do you roll in R&D costs, across time? Holy mackerel. And risk. The cost of risk is a typically unspoken/hidden cost. Benchmark's business model seems to do very well for them. Link to comment
Popular Post PYP Posted December 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 24, 2020 returning to the Tambaqui...for some folks, myself included, the goal isn't just great (that is, good approximation of live) sound, but also aesthetics, energy and space efficiency, WAF, maximum compatibility with one's other gear and getting the designer's best effort in that category. If you can get all of those at a lower cost, that is great. I've lived with four DACs previously, all much less expensive than the Tambaqui. I enjoyed them all, but it very clear to my ears that none came close to the level of the live sound experience that the Tambaqui provides. And we have two users in my household (three, if you include the kitten, who prefers Jazz at reasonable volume). Measurements don't mean anything to my wife. She either enjoys the music or she doesn't. She loves the Tambaqui as much as I do and we both listen to a lot more music since we got it. Davidny and barrows 2 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
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