The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC

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40 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Very good point because every ASR fan knows for a fact that anyone who spends over $500 on a DAC is an idiot. 

I'm not the biggest fan of that site, but I think testing various units (not just DACs) in terms of their actual output is a useful service - if the measurements are done correctly. 

Archimago sometimes does the same type of thing at his site.
 

It doesn't mean all units sound the same, or that expensive DACs are for idiots, but I think it is useful data to see that sometimes more modestly priced components measure as well or better than more expensive ones, and that some of the tweaks that audiophiles think are so important actually don't seem to make a difference at all at the output.

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Just now, Miska said:

 

I'm most worried about the expensive gear that measures badly... I sometimes wonder if the manufacturer ever measured their creation...

 

Probably not. Probably voiced by ear to "sound good", which could include lots of euphonic distortion.

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@The Computer Audiophile

Ever try and get one of these to review? Any interest?

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Very interested. 
 

I’ll put it on my list. For some reason I just overlooked this one. 

There are people who prefer it to EMM. Will be interesting to hear your reaction if you get one. 

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

For 14k I expect this to support more than one network protocol. 

You can expect whatever you want. Every company has decision criteria. If theirs don't match yours, buy a different product.

There are certainly all sorts of options on the market. Even more expensive DACs that are "only" DACs. Imagine that....

I guess no one will buy one.

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7 hours ago, plissken said:

Why would anyone be surprised by someone dropping $12K on a mere DAC see that same person 'modify' it. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more the more $$ is spent.

Not really. You're only showing your own prejudices against people who spend big money.  I think most people who buy such an item buy it because they don't think it needs mods. 

There are always going to be people with audiophillia nervosa who will buy into almost anything.

 

The DAC is state of the art in pretty much every way including cosmetics,build, service, upgradability. So you pay for that. You think it's silly.  Other people have money and want the best.

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8 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Has any Tambaqui owner or dealer found a particular "sweet spot" with this dac; meaning, if one uses an upsampling engine like HQPlayer or an offline upsampler (or even serendipitously found a 24/xxx recording) does the Tambaqui seem to like certain sampling rates over others?  If so, maybe Miska's comments (albeit a bit biased as the developer of HQP) about sending this dac the highest PCM you can has some merit?   Same goes for DSD files....thx

AFAIK, the Kii's I own have a similar DAC operation (the software/upsampling/resampling part) to the Mola Mola. Kii recommends leaving all sample rates as is - since everything is interally resampled and upsampled with their proprietary engine. 

I also find that this works best and I don't hear any real difference between formats. 

You could also ask the US distributor, GTT.

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32 minutes ago, galanakop said:

I'm not sure if a device and pre amplifier and dac would have the same performance if they were two separate. I think in terms of catering it will definitely lag behind. What do you say???

in terms of power supply I meanI imagine that two power supplies compared to one like doing this on its own will make a difference.  what do you think ???

 

Why don't you ask the distributor? I think they will give you a straight answer if the integrated unit is as good - or possibly better - than the separates. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer for these questions. It's probably dependent on the implementation. 

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3 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Wow! I've read quite a few great remarks on Tambaqui but nothing like yours. I've been seriously considering it but unfortunately it lacks a preamp (I need at least one analog input).

Added note: The Makua is a state of the art preamp that you can add either a DAC card (the same one as in the Tambaqui) or a phono pre card - or both.

 

IMO, the sound as a DAC should be essentially identical to the Tambaqui, some may like it better. 

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1 hour ago, mevdinc said:

I am aware of Makua with internal DAC option but I'd rather it is the other way around i.e a fully pledged DAC with a builtin preamp and streamer; an all-in-one DAC.  I just need a decent volume control and one analog input with the preamp.
Plus from Chris's reaction, Linn's new in-house DAC chip maybe much better, that's why it would be interesting to compare the two systems. Maybe Chris will do it. :)

I think you are making a false distinction here. The Tambaqui is a DAC with a volume control. It's a digital volume control for the DAC board. 

The Makua is more of a traditional preamp which also functions as a DAC by incorporating the same DAC board as the Tambaqui.

I don't see how one is a "fully fledged DAC" and the other isn't. In DAC terms they are the same. In terms of type of volume control they aren't. In terms of ins and outs the Makua is far advanced. 

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

T+A uses a multi element discrete converter specifically for the DSD conversion engine in their DACs, not an IC DAC chip (T+A does appear to use an IC DAC chip for PCM conversion-but of course one could use external oversampling to high rate DSD via HQPlayer to avoid that, as many do).  Other DACs using variations on this approach are Holo Audio, Denafrips, and I just found out that Esoteric is also using this approach.  All of these DACs use the multi element, discrete high speed switch, approach, and all are variations on the same design as Jussi's DSC-1 approach.  Of course these DACs differ in the exact approach of the oversampling engine, and the rate at which the final conversion stage operates, but they all have the very similar (discrete/multi element) conversion stage. 

 

Playback Designs and Meitner/EMM use a discrete conversion stage operating on a highly oversampled data stream as well, but it is not clear to me the details of their conversion stages.  Bricasti and PS Audio also use discrete conversion stages using high speed switches, but these are of a different design (Bricasti's discrete conversion stage is only for DSD input).

I believe Kii and Grimm LS audio systems use a similar DAC setup as the Mola Mola. Also Bruno designs. 

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4 hours ago, barrows said:

I do not know about the Grimms, but am almost certain that the Kiis actually use regular IC DAC chips (I believe originally AKM, so with the problems, maybe they have made a change...).

Pretty sure you are wrong. The Kiis are using the same 93.75 internal sample rate and 40 bit processing as Bruno's other designs. 

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6 hours ago, matthias said:

From the Kii Audio HP

 

"Naturally, this means that the performance of the AD/DA conversion has to match that of the amps. This task fell to Bart van der Laan who has a long track record designing DSP and converter boards for high-end professional audio equipment. Kii Audio’s implementation is a runaway success: a complete pass through the AD/DA circuitry of the THREE’s signal processing board is entirely inaudible, a feat not duplicated by the most expensive audiophile standalone units."

 

So this parts seem not be designed by Bruno.

 

Matt

I'm well aware of that quote. Bart is the DSP specialist who worked with Bruno on the Kii. No one claimed that Bruno personally designed every bit of the Kii Three technology. Bart's design works with the process Bruno uses elsewhere: 93.75 internal sample rate and 40 bit. I'm pretty sure he also had a hand in previous designs like the Mola Mola and the Grimm. 

 

Here's the bio from the Kii Web Site:

Quote

Bart's extensive knowledge and experience in embedded software development and digital signal processing allow Kii to swiftly embrace and master the latest technologies. All Kii technologies are designed in-house and rely on the synergy between Bruno and Bart, a combination that proved itself successful for over a decade in several other companies. Audio and technology have always been part of his life. In 2011 he started his own company offering design services for manufacturers of electronics. A growing interest in the business side drove the decision to co-found Kii and take charge of the trajectory between hardcore engineering and sales. Every Kii product will grow up and leave the factory under Bart's supervision in his role as COO.

 

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2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

OK, maybe Bruno was involved with the AD/DSP/DA design of Kii and Grimm as well but I didn't come across so far of any evidence that the DAC design of these DSP speakers is similar or identical to the Mola Mola DACs. 

 

Matt

Never said identical. The evidence we  have that it's similar is that they are using the same internal sample rate and then following with upsampling to extremely high rates as in Mola Mola. Bruno has talked about it in interviews. I don't know for sure how they are doing the actual AD/DA conversion. I've never seen anywhere a reference to a DAC chip in the Kii. It could of course, be that they are doing the DSP/resampling/upsampling  in software and then the actual conversion with a chip -  what Mola Mola does with FPGA (proprietary programming on a programmable chip). That would seem like sort of a weird way to design it, though. 

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

Not sure what happened to above post, sorry!

 

Anyway, what Jussi is saying above reminds me of: "great minds think alike"  As I recall Bruno Putzeys mentioning that he designed the Tambaqui DAC in 2013, bringing it to production took much longer.

They said one of the reasons was it took two years of attempts to get an acceptable level of production for that waved case....

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6 minutes ago, granosalis said:

Thanks for the answer. Is Mr. Bruno Putzeys still in business with Mola Mola or fully involved in Kii and Purifi only?
Asking also becasue Mola Mola history page is not updated since May 3th 2016.

https://www.mola-mola.nl/history.php

Last I read he isn't there any more. They use his amp and dac tech that they own. But AFAIU, they license NCore tech and build proprietary versions.